HARM realism?
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To be fair Serbian AD was very smart and extra cautious about EMCON which is why their SAM threat persisted throughout the campaign. SAMs didn’t shoot much but they survived and by their existence reduced NATO air effectiveness by altitudes, package composition, etc.
Iraq on the other hand had poor EMCON for SAMs and had their system neutralized in a few days.
The realism for ARMs is overwhelmingly dependent on the ground force behavior. The BMS HARMs might be absolutely perfect in modeling but have an excessive effect due to careless target behavior.
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Agree.
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If a HARM misses its target, it has done the job it was meant to do: Force the enemy to switch off. No wonder 1000’s were spent for very few kills (in AF).
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No …
It seems that you are misunderstanding what HARM is made for.
It is not to destroy the SAM (DEAD mission) … it is to deter operator to switch on their radar (SEAD). Most of HARMs has been launched in preventive against target to force them to stay silent.
Actually, it takes out the antenna…and if you do it “right” in FAF you can make them do that. At least in the Training Missions - what you do with your own radar makes it work. They seem to react very smartly to being looked back at.
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All I can say is it is as frustrating as heck. Running the HARM training mission over and over again, I hand off a HAS mode target to my Wingman and he hits the SAM sites 100% of the time. I miss 100% of the time in both HAS (waiting for the RDY) and POS(selecting SAM from HSD, aligning in between the bars and on centerline) modes. This occurs with SA2, SA3, SA4, & SA6. In comparison to my wing, that does not look like correct PK. It always goes to the left or right of the target. I mean, do I have to follow the missile in and let them keep me locked up and fire on me in order for my missile to get a hit? Firing just outside of the threat circle while being painted or further out, I still get the same results. I don’t remember the HARMs being this bad even when we were in the Realism group. I realize back then we didn’t have the HARM modes we have now but we did have the data.
As far as HARM doing its job by missing the target(???), AI doesn’t seem to delay or be deterred with firing on you after you miss.
I’ve been at this for the last 2 weeks. Perhaps this works out differently in campaign and multiplayer but as of right now, something seems off…
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As stated before its the ground behavior that will determine wether the harm can hit or not does not matter what mode you are in or whatever that is just to give the missile its inital launch vector trajectory and priority of radar types. You must be flying the TE the exact same way do something so the behavior of the ground force changes.
BTW SAMS are doing their job if they are going cold before you hit them. -
All I can say is it is as frustrating as heck. Running the HARM training mission over and over again, I hand off a HAS mode target to my Wingman and he hits the SAM sites 100% of the time. I miss 100% of the time in both HAS (waiting for the RDY) and POS(selecting SAM from HSD, aligning in between the bars and on centerline) modes. This occurs with SA2, SA3, SA4, & SA6. In comparison to my wing, that does not look like correct PK. It always goes to the left or right of the target. I mean, do I have to follow the missile in and let them keep me locked up and fire on me in order for my missile to get a hit? Firing just outside of the threat circle while being painted or further out, I still get the same results. I don’t remember the HARMs being this bad even when we were in the Realism group. I realize back then we didn’t have the HARM modes we have now but we did have the data.
As far as HARM doing its job by missing the target(???), AI doesn’t seem to delay or be deterred with firing on you after you miss.
I’ve been at this for the last 2 weeks. Perhaps this works out differently in campaign and multiplayer but as of right now, something seems off…
Are you taking into account what was written to you as an answer or are you too pissed off because you didn’t get the kill ?
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This is a post from 2013, so wouldn’t the original issue pertain to Falcon 4.32??
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Hi Shisa, they are not going cold. I am watching them on the Scope specifically to see if I hit them(as indicated by them disappearing after my missile times out-which never happens). They are emitting from the time of launch to timing out of the HARM missile and are not blanking out off the scope and then coming back lit. This is in 4.34.
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This is a post from 2013, so wouldn’t the original issue pertain to Falcon 4.32??
Not sure, but I was about to post about what I am seeing in 4.34 by starting a new thread. But since this thread was already there with a fresh post I placed my findings here.
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Are you taking into account what was written to you as an answer or are you too pissed off because you didn’t get the kill ?
I’m not too pissed, and I see what Shisa is saying. I am just not seeing the behavior that was presented(such as the site cutting the radar off to mask and throw off my HARM shot). After flying the exact same way, I altered things such as order and approach of attacks. I’ve tried many approaches from normal charted flight path, over the ocean, from the shoreline, attacking the various SAM types in differing order(SA2 then SA4 or SA6 then SA3), etc. Nevertheless, my wingman still kills every SAM handed off to him during our runs. My shots miss 100% of the missions flown.
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Help me understand this. Why would a SAM be any harder to hit than any other ground target?
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Help me understand this. Why would a SAM be any harder to hit than any other ground target?
You are firing HARMs at other ground targets??? I hope not. If not, then you need to realize HARMs are nothing like the other weapons you deploy on ground targets. SAMs are just as easy to hit with CBUs as any other target using CBU’s. HARMs are for SEAD, CBUs are for DEAD.
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I agree with TheSilkMan the weapon called HARM missile in BMS does not behave consistently. I can shoot the SA2 in POS (EOM) mode every time but with the SA3 and following the exact same steps the shot is wasted every time. I also noted that if I steer the jet away from the SA2 after shooting the missile will miss, in other words I have to direct the jet’s radar toward the target (I don’t know if that is the way it is supposed to be). It’s really not a surprise since the behavior of these weapons are highly classified and thus an accurate modeling will be impossible.
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You are firing HARMs at other ground targets??? I hope not. If not, then you need to realize HARMs are nothing like the other weapons you deploy on ground targets. SAMs are just as easy to hit with CBUs as any other target using CBU’s. HARMs are for SEAD, CBUs are for DEAD.
I didn’t say that. If the HARMs aren’t accurate. Why not use a different weapon?
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I agree with TheSilkMan the weapon called HARM missile in BMS does not behave consistently. I can shoot the SA2 in POS (EOM) mode every time but with the SA3 and following the exact same steps the shot is wasted every time. I also noted that if I steer the jet away from the SA2 after shooting the missile will miss, in other words I have to direct the jet’s radar toward the target (I don’t know if that is the way it is supposed to be). It’s really not a surprise since the behavior of these weapons are highly classified and thus an accurate modeling will be impossible.
The jet’s radar has nothing to do with HARM target acquisition; the 88 is “fire & forget” Also, as previously explained, the weapon serves 2 purposes, DEAD/SEAD. And if you killed the target as often as you are expecting to that’s not realistic; .34 AFAIK modeled it to be more realistic than in .33/.32……otherwise, ARCADE
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I also noted that if I steer the jet away from the SA2 after shooting the missile will miss, in other words I have to direct the jet’s radar toward the target (I don’t know if that is the way it is supposed to be).
I have reproduced this behaviour also.
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The jet’s radar has nothing to do with HARM target acquisition; the 88 is “fire & forget” Also, as previously explained, the weapon serves 2 purposes, DEAD/SEAD. And if you killed the target as often as you are expecting to that’s not realistic; .34 AFAIK modeled it to be more realistic than in .33/.32……otherwise, ARCADE
that’s what I expected too but when I don’t veer the jet away it always hits the SA2 successfully, once veered however then a miss is guaranteed. That is what I observed after many trials.
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Ran another mission just now. All former missions were at altitudes of 22 - 25k ft in HAS or POS mode. This time I climbed to 32 - 33k ft and commenced my runs. I drove in for the attack out side of the threat circle until I was painted by the SA-2 at this altitude and then locked up the target. Then I flew into the threat circle, the moment he launched, I launched and broke off to commence evasive maneuvers. His missile was spoofed and my HARM hit. I then followed the same procedure for the remaining SAMs, this time handing the SA-3 and SA-6 to my wingman. At 33k ft, both targets were destroyed by my AI Wingman. I then went for the SA-4 using this same tactic, SA-4 was destroyed by my HARM.
Conclusions:
In BMS 4.34 -
- HARMs do not achieve a kill for the player at 25k ft or below.
- Harms do achieve a kill for the player at 32 - 33k ft inside of the threat circle after being launched on.
- HARMs achieve a kill for the AI Wing at all altitudes tested whether inside or outside of the threat circle without a launch being provoked.
- The PK achieved for Player vs AI are different.