LGB's SHOULD be SO easy!
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Anyone else think that LGB are incredibly easy in BMS? Point and shoot, lase however long you want, hit every time.
Easy yes. Lase however long you want, yes as to P2s, not so as to P3s.
With Paveway IIIs it’s easy only after you figure out you should lase them all the way down. A rough rule of thumb of 1.5 seconds per 1000’ of altitude I think will work if you want to automatically give guidance all the way down, else manually lase until your terminal guidance time setting.
Once I got that pointed out to me and dialed in, I think I missed in the last 100 bombs maybe four times. The first two times due to brain lapse (once for not even ground stabilizing TGP and the other for forgetting to configure the DED laser page) LOL. The last two times I did it on purpose to show if you lase only for 10 seconds with a GBU-24 you will miss at 30k.
On the other hand, I am not a coder or math guy or aerospace engineer etc. So if you don’t have all three of those things as your wheelhouse it’s going to be incredibly hard to model under perfect conditions. Then to have code calculate all the other variables that Dee-Jay brings up. God, I’m getting exhausted just thinking of what a monumental task that stuff could be to implement correctly – but if it could be – that would be sweeter than honey covered sugar cane. :thumb:
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You should be calculating lift at all times - guiding or not, and independent of altitude.
Oh yeah I am so stupid I forgot that
i also forgot volumetric mass of atmoshere is constant with altitude, i’m so dumb !!
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My goal was to assist other simmers and the team with these issues, not to argue for the sake of arguing.
Vandal that video was epic. The original questioned was aimed at understating how BMS is currently implementing the lasing system, and the parameters associated with dropping LGB’s. While we all certainly enjoy the realism of the game (this is a game after all), understanding what is and what is not modeled helps us understand how to employ the weapons properly to fit the simulation world. Taking what is done in a real F-16 is not the same and is not necessarily recreated in BMS… For one, I don’t use a piddle pack - i hit P and then go pee (wash my hands in respect to corona virus pandemic) and then return to having fun. So the question of what and how things are modeled is never an attack on the great guys that keep BMS alive (did I mention I have my original manual still somewhere?) - but a chance to learn what we should consider (or skip) when employing weapons… because I really don’t want to run a whole campaign dropping JDMAS.
Thanks for the excellent video and all the discussion
- bruzzer
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In RL for systems I’m familiar with, in all cases (GBU 10/12/16/LGTR; 24 is a special case), lasing time is the same - Paveway II or III. What constitutes a valid release varies with each weapon.
As it happens, all the systems you listed are P-IIs… except the “special case” 24, which is a P-III. Paveway IIIs are GBU-24, -27 and -28 (and -22, but I don’t think that one was ever used).
Of course the valid release parameters will vary, because they are different weapons with different ballistics. Lasing techniques, however, will only vary between weapon families.
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As it happens, all the systems you listed are P-IIs… except the “special case” 24, which is a P-III. Paveway IIIs are GBU-24, -27 and -28 (and -22, but I don’t think that one was ever used).
Of course the valid release parameters will vary, because they are different weapons with different ballistics. Lasing techniques, however, will only vary between weapon families.
USN doesn’t use -27, -28, or -22 (which may have been exported?)…but looking at pictures of them they all seem to use the same CCU - so that makes sense.
In my world, no…lasing techniques for all of GBU 10/12/16/LGTR are identical. GBU-24 does do some different things…but it’s been so long since I’ve played with one I sort of forget just what those are - only remember they are different…but not radically.
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In my world, no…lasing techniques for all of GBU 10/12/16/LGTR are identical
Yes but they are all P2s.
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Yes but they are all P2s.
But they are different weapons…and the CCU and tail kits are all different parts.
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But they are different weapons…and the CCU and tail kits are all different parts.
Different weapons from the same family. The seeker electronics are likely similar if not identical, and the guidance method that they use is the same. That’s what matters for lasing technique. The guidance logic is the same across all P2s, but P3s use a more advanced seeker, with a wider FOV, proportional guidance and large fins to extend glide time.
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Different weapons from the same family. The seeker electronics are likely similar if not identical, and the guidance method that they use is the same. That’s what matters for lasing technique. The guidance logic is the same across all P2s, but P3s use a more advanced seeker, with a wider FOV, proportional guidance and large fins to extend glide time.
More than that for the P-IIIs as I recall…was a long time ago for me. The P-IIs still don’t all share the same CEP, even if they do guide the same and use identical laser employment.
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Differences in CEP are probably accounted for by different fin sizes and shapes. I’d expect a smaller bomb to be more precise, because the fins have less inertia and less aerodynamic force acting on them, so the actuators can move them faster. “Bang-bang” guidance assumes instant control surface response, and any deviation from that (inevitable in a physical system) will increase CEP.
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From the testing I’ve conducted sometimes you get “good” CCUs and sometimes not…then there are the guys that just plain have great control placing the spot. There’s a number of factors.
I’ve been doing a lot of coaching in the Trainers for new engineers of late - generally people that have never even flown an airplane before - and I’ve gotten pretty good at placing the spot to put a pair of GBU-16s on a tank in the open. Also helps when one flies and one runs the sensor/designator. I know I’ve managed to save a few drops. Managed to lose a few as well - gotta watch those wings…if you mask, you lose the pass.
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@Red:
Nope,
It is input from other team people but as said above the training missions are specific and obviously they use GBU-12, which are PavewayII.
Training chapters must be precise and relevant to what they document. Hence why the line about Paveway III is more of a general comment and not an important input for this training mission. If the training mission would use Paveway III then I would have stated something much more precise than that:If the training flight would use Paveway III then you can be sure that I would come up with a specific time to lase, because I would have tested it until being successful.
But in the absence of reasons to do these tests, then I had to rely on the vague information given to me. and that’s what you find in the manualTo solve your problem, you need a training mission for Paveway II and another for Paveway III.
That’s interesting because the process is the same in BMS for all the Paveway series, at least that’s how I’ve deployed them and had no issues. No need to have two diff. missions for two diff. types as they all fall and lase the same BMS speaking of course not real life. (I’m speaking just from experimentally using all the Paveway series.)
I wonder if BMS models penetration then the boom? Something I’ve never tried before.
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That’s interesting because the process is the same in BMS for all the Paveway series, at least that’s how I’ve deployed them and had no issues. No need to have two diff. missions for two diff. types as they all fall and lase the same BMS speaking of course not real life. (I’m speaking just from experimentally using all the Paveway series.)
I wonder if BMS models penetration then the boom? Something I’ve never tried before.
If you would be so kind, could you run a test mission with GBU-24s? Your own TE, campaign, multiplayer, whatever you prefer. Bomb from Angels 30. Lase for 10 seconds. And then let us know the results? I suspect you might have been lasing from a lower altitude. But if my testing doesn’t align with yours, that’s something that we should bring to the attention of Mav-JP who I think is working on this issue.
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If you would be so kind, could you run a test mission with GBU-24s? Your own TE, campaign, multiplayer, whatever you prefer. Bomb from Angels 30. Lase for 10 seconds. And then let us know the results? I suspect you might have been lasing from a lower altitude. But if my testing doesn’t align with yours, that’s something that we should bring to the attention of Mav-JP who I think is working on this issue.
Well the thing about that is I don’t auto lase, I lase from release to impact manually with second trigger detent. I always drop these weapons from medium-high altitudes.
I’ve never missed. I suppose I can manual lase last 10 seconds and see what happens.
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That explains your success, you weren’t following the tutorial or what folks with real world experience suggest. When you do what the manual says for Paveway IIs with a GBU-24 at altitude – you miss. Well, unless you happen to manually lase early enough but the manual doesn’t say when or why you should IIRC.
Anyway, again according to RL experience reported here in the forums, you lase Paveway IIIs all the way down _if you don’t you risk missing long. IRL you don’t do that with Paveway IIs because if you do that with P2s land short.
The sim is different than RL. At present if you lase P2s all the way down (or for too long from too high an altitude) they still hit – so Mav-JP was planning on fixing that – or at least improving it – at some point. And with Paveway IIIs the manual – according to Red Dog – is going to be expanded to make it a bit more clear as how to employ those. Also, I think Mav-JP is going to double-check on Paveway III ballistics and guidance (not 100% sure on that). Basically, that’s the status of things I believe._
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That explains your success, you weren’t following the tutorial or what folks with real world experience suggest. When you do what the manual says for Paveway IIs with a GBU-24 at altitude – you miss. Well, unless you happen to manually lase early enough but the manual doesn’t say when or why you should IIRC.
Anyway, again according to RL experience reported here in the forums, you lase Paveway IIIs all the way down _if you don’t you risk missing long. IRL you don’t do that with Paveway IIs because if you do that with P2s land short.
The sim is different than RL. At present if you lase P2s all the way down (or for too long from too high an altitude) they still hit – so Mav-JP was planning on fixing that – or at least improving it – at some point. And with Paveway IIIs the manual – according to Red Dog – is going to be expanded to make it a bit more clear as how to employ those. Also, I think Mav-JP is going to double-check on Paveway III ballistics and guidance (not 100% sure on that). Basically, that’s the status of things I believe.
Landing short if lasing from release IRL, that sounds weird for the P2s. So when would you laze with P2s IRL? 20-30 seconds before impact?
It only sounds weird to me cuz I never dropped them IRL of course._
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It’s in the thread above, and I don’t understand it 100% that’s for sure, but I’ll take a layman’s stab at it.
So when you lase what happens is the bomb guidance unit detects the termination point of the laser and the fins snap to attention and try to align to the target indicated.
I believe bomb fins are set at maximum glide when they are loaded on the pylon and your fire control computer expects that to be the case upon release. So, when you lase early and cause the fins to snap to a different position that would introduces additional drag into the equation. Just like if you pitch up in a plane. When you pitch down in a plane you do gain speed, but there’s an optimum glide slope so if you pitch too far down, and you have no engine thrust, you have just reduced the maximum range you can glide.
Also, I suspect that in RL, when lasing, the bomb tries to fly a flattened curve to the target. So, once again if you trade-in altitude for a line-of-sight flight path and the line of sight flight path is below the optimum glide path, well you never get that altitude back for your bomb, so it’s range would be gimped there as well.
Additionally, keep in mind the fire control computer had no way of knowing that you were going to manually lase early, so it can’t account for that. I’m guessing in RL you want to drop well within the staple if you plan on manually lasing all the way down.
But honestly, I don’t know for sure about any of what happens in real life. I only know what happened in my testing of the sim. So going back through the thread will probably be more enlightening than listening to me.
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The reason that this isn’t the case with Paveway IIIs is that they have a brain that thinks more like a human pilot trying to make an engine out landing. It’s wanting to keep its options open for as long as it possibly can and so the fin movement commanded by the guidance unit is much more subtle and skewed towards landing long.
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It’s in the thread above, and I don’t understand it 100% that’s for sure, but I’ll take a layman’s stab at it.
So when you lase what happens is the bomb guidance unit detects the termination point of the laser and the fins snap to attention and try to align to the target indicated.
I believe bomb fins are set at maximum glide when they are loaded on the pylon and your fire control computer expects that to be the case upon release. So, when you lase early and cause the fins to snap to a different position that would introduces additional drag into the equation. Just like if you pitch up in a plane. When you pitch down in a plane you do gain speed, but there’s an optimum glide slope so if you pitch too far down, and you have no engine thrust, you have just reduced the maximum range you can glide.
Also, I suspect that in RL, when lasing, the bomb tries to fly a flattened curve to the target. So, once again if you trade-in altitude for a line-of-sight flight path and the line of sight flight path is below the optimum glide path, well you never get that altitude back for your bomb, so it’s range would be gimped there as well.
Additionally, keep in mind the fire control computer had no way of knowing that you were going to manually lase early, so it can’t account for that. I’m guessing in RL you want to drop well within the staple if you plan on manually lasing all the way down.
But honestly, I don’t know for sure about any of what happens in real life. I only know what happened in my testing of the sim. So going back through the thread will probably be more enlightening than listening to me.
RL doesn’t concern me I’ll leave that to the pro’s, but I see what you mean, now it makes more sense plus weather could be a cluster you know what in with a monkey wrench. I still don’t have weather commander installed so I’ll have to snap to that as well.