Dcs World Viper and Falcon BMS
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No need to change in the game His very heart - his unpredictability. Do not make it easier, because someone is hard.
Otherwise, Falcon will simply die forever.
Make it more beautiful, add VR, adjust the landscape if possible and that’s it. Please do not touch the rest.Falcon is so beautiful that it can give on the ass when you are sure that you are a general))) whom no one will win.
Enjoy the Falcon. And who needs a circus and a cool blanket under his ass and 100% knowledge of the location of the enemy - let him play in DCSIf the game has AAA and SAM that you did not know about, they should shoot you. Even if they don’t hit you, it’s very good. Do not relax - this is Falcon. It gives pleasant unexpected moments when you think - I won)) And they defeated you.
It is this quality that makes Falcon unique for today. His soul
he is alive -
General speaking for the recycled pointless so far comparison.
BMS is an and tries to be an F-16 block50&52 SIMULATOR, NOT only yesterday not only today not only tomorrow BUT all these previous YEARS with some negative but more positive as F-16 SIM during all these years of development
DCS F-16 is now starting and trying to develop a F-16 Block50 SIMULATOR -Realistically!? We will see it is not an easy project and this can be answered from BMS dev for all these years of development , with many 3D positive but so far many F-16 simulator negative as Beta!!!
So from my point of view is pointless to compare and what we can compare?..…, let’s wait and see I am sure both SIMULATORS would be better in the near feature, each in it’s specialty and they will become better and better …for F-16 simmers, which would be an F-16 Realistic Simulator in these “marathon”? We will see …
I agree with your opinion - there is nothing to offer so far to compare by the DCS.
When the DCS, in addition to aircraft, tries to make a game for them as well. Then we will compare. -
In the Yom Kippur war yes, but that was a long time ago. It was also the first campaign where the IAF encountered sams if I recall correct. Since then the IAF learned how to deal with that threat. And ever since the IAF flew F-15’s and F-16’s losses were minimal. USAF and USN also suffered quite a few losses to sams etc. in Vietnam. But since these lessons were learned and the teen fighters that came from that, things got very one sided ever since. And I disagree that that was only due to dumb sams and AAA. Then you don’t give western air power enough credit. And in Desert Storm and Allied Force etc. F-15’s and F-16’s did not wait until full air superiority was achieved. These jets still very much flew into contested airspace. And they were able to deal with these threats.
I never said the a campaign against Russia would be easy. And yes, they have impressive sam systems like the S-300and S-400. Don’t think anybody considers those systems easy. However I think western air forces are trained to deal with those threats and are able to deal with them. Russia said in Syria they would stop any US cruise missile attack with their S-400 system. In the end, they didn’t stop any cruise missile. Sure, this is probably mostly political, but in the end it was an empty threat. The IAF took out a few Pantsir systems. A system that I often read should be very deadly for 4th generation fighters. Yet the IAF took them out with little or no losses. Ask India how they feel about the Pak-FA. So no, I don’t think Russia’s weapon systems are as effective as Russia claims them to be. They are a threat yes and nobody will think lightly of this threat, but I do think western air power knows how to deal with this threat.
Anyway, the point I was trying to make is if you send in 20 AI aircraft against SA-2 and SA-3 level threats, I don’t think it’s very realistic when 18 of them get shot down. That’s just my opinion based on the scenario’s I mentioned in my posts here. You may have a different opinion and that is fine.
Any weapon is just a tool. A good tool in the hands of a savage is just a piece of iron.
Western specialists are better aware of the possibilities of different countries than you. Therefore, there is a balance in the world.
As soon as the balance is upset, there will probably be a war.In your hands Falcon is also a tool with many opportunities to come to victory, as well as many opportunities to lose the war in the game.
The result is that in any business you have to be a master to enjoy yourself.
Become a master of deeds, not words, and enjoy. -
No need to change in the game His very heart - his unpredictability. Do not make it easier, because someone is hard.
Otherwise, Falcon will simply die forever.
Make it more beautiful, add VR, adjust the landscape if possible and that’s it. Please do not touch the rest.Falcon is so beautiful that it can give on the ass when you are sure that you are a general))) whom no one will win.
Enjoy the Falcon. And who needs a circus and a cool blanket under his ass and 100% knowledge of the location of the enemy - let him play in DCSIf the game has AAA and SAM that you did not know about, they should shoot you. Even if they don’t hit you, it’s very good. Do not relax - this is Falcon. It gives pleasant unexpected moments when you think - I won)) And they defeated you.
It is this quality that makes Falcon unique for today. His soul
he is aliveNo, I’m not a military expert. Just voicing my opinion based on what I’ve seen and read over the years and what I feel is realistic based on outcomes of real life campaigns. I don’t mean to upset or offend anyone. Falcon is also my favorite sim. Falcon wants to be a realistic sim of being a fighter pilot in a war scenario. A scenario that is bigger than just you. That’s what makes the dynamic campaign so great. So that’s why I’m making the comparison with real life campaigns. By no means am I claiming that real life wars are a game or fun.
Anyway, with regard to the sim, I’m not suggesting to make the sim easier. The only thing I would like is the AI to be a bit more capable. To have a bit more control over the survivability of my wingmen or strike package. Basically the things I suggested in response to Dee-Jay. If I have some more control of how the AI attacks a target would already be great. If I can set that they do just one fast pass rather than orbit a target for 20 minutes, would be great. If I have some more control over my own wingmen that I can tell them to go defensive or regroup rather than them flying themselves into deadly situations would also be great.
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No, I’m not a military expert. Just voicing my opinion based on what I’ve seen and read over the years and what I feel is realistic based on outcomes of real life campaigns. I don’t mean to upset or offend anyone. Falcon is also my favorite sim. Falcon wants to be a realistic sim of being a fighter pilot in a war scenario. A scenario that is bigger than just you. That’s what makes the dynamic campaign so great. So that’s why I’m making the comparison with real life campaigns. By no means am I claiming that real life wars are a game or fun.
Anyway, with regard to the sim, I’m not suggesting to make the sim easier. The only thing I would like is the AI to be a bit more capable. To have a bit more control over the survivability of my wingmen or strike package. Basically the things I suggested in response to Dee-Jay. If I have some more control of how the AI attacks a target would already be great. If I can set that they do just one fast pass rather than orbit a target for 20 minutes, would be great. If I have some more control over my own wingmen that I can tell them to go defensive or regroup rather than them flying themselves into deadly situations would also be great.
What game are you playing? I play Falcon BMS 4.34 U4. I have followers and they definitely do what I tell them. I’m the commander there, not the followers. When I say collection, they are going to. When I say attack, they attack. When I say Do not attack - they go along and do not even jerk.
You just need to command them, and not throw them on the battlefield.
Control is enough to control all the troops in general! And the followers only do what they are ordered to do.If you take more control over the followers, it will be impossible for you to complete the mission yourself. You will only command, you will not play.
All teams in Falcon have a strict meaning.
Attack or attack my target - these are different tasks. If a slave speaks of a threat and wants to attack - it is imperative to give him either a ban or permission. If you keep silent, he will decide)) Here he is Falcon - he is alive.I highly recommend that you read the manual, the chapters regarding the management of the followers. What the commands mean. Everything is clearly stated in the manual. Thank you very much to the creator of the manual!
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Hi guys,
Sorry to join this discussion right in the middle, but I’ve been following this thread, and for once I think this is a DCS vs BMS thread that has proved quite interesting to read.
I would be curious to get your opinion on DCS standalone campaigns.
When I read the topic I understand that DeeJay for example told that he could not create a package that was able to push on time, and things like this.
I know that DCS AI is basically crappy, but if you compare with standalone campaigns with a good reputation (I read lots of good things about Baltic Dragon’s ones for example).
I’d be curious to get the opinions of someone who knows BMS AND has actually flown this type of campaigns.
Admitting that the scale will not be the same (because as we know DCS engine is just unable to protray a full on war). But do you think that you can get smaller scenarios that are interesting to play ? Or do you think that even when the mission has been designed by someone who realy knows the editor and can use some tricks, Ai behavior will still be a showstopper ?Best regards and thanks a lot to the BMS team for their passion and involvement.
Charles
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What game are you playing? I play Falcon BMS 4.34 U4. I have followers and they definitely do what I tell them. I’m the commander there, not the followers. When I say collection, they are going to. When I say attack, they attack. When I say Do not attack - they go along and do not even jerk.
You just need to command them, and not throw them on the battlefield.
Control is enough to control all the troops in general! And the followers only do what they are ordered to do.I’m talking about strike packages. If I fly a TARCAP in a strike package with several flights, I don’t have any command over what the bombers do in the strike package. I cannot command them in flight. They fly their own mission. And often they orbit a target at low speed for quite a long time rather than doing one quick pass.
But also for your own wingmen. Imagine you do a 2v2 against Mig29’s which carry AA12’s. For the initial attack you can command your wingman to stay at a certain safe distance. You can use the new bvr commands, you can flex them a bit if you want. There are several options. However if not all bandits are destroyed after the initial attack and you have to re-engage, then options what you can tell your wingman are limited to keep him alive. If the AI gets too close to bandits that carry amraams or AA12’s they become very vulnerable. You can try to tell them to rejoin with you, but often this is not effective. If you have found effective commands to keep your AI wingmen alive in this scenario, please let me know. -
I’m talking about strike packages. If I fly a TARCAP in a strike package with several flights, I don’t have any command over what the bombers do in the strike package. I cannot command them in flight. They fly their own mission. And often they orbit a target at low speed for quite a long time rather than doing one quick pass.
But also for your own wingmen. Imagine you do a 2v2 against Mig29’s which carry AA12’s. For the initial attack you can command your wingman to stay at a certain safe distance. You can use the new bvr commands, you can flex them a bit if you want. There are several options. However if not all bandits are destroyed after the initial attack and you have to re-engage, then options what you can tell your wingman are limited to keep him alive. If the AI gets too close to bandits that carry amraams or AA12’s they become very vulnerable. You can try to tell them to rejoin with you, but often this is not effective. If you have found effective commands to keep your AI wingmen alive in this scenario, please let me know.It’s funny - I’ll tell you one secret. In Falcon All the bots are commanded by the same AI)) And if the Computer defeats your packages - it means that you planned the task incorrectly for them, missed the time - in a word - you made a mistake.
The answer is simple - learn to win, it is a science of victory in the war and properly distribute their capabilities.
Falcon is not just the flight of your personal fighter. It is much more. This is exactly so in the DCS - there is all hope only for you and your plane - you are GOD))) But this does not happen.It is necessary to take into account the time, place and expected forces and actions of the enemy. He easily creates ambushes.Each flight point on the map has its own parameters, they must be controlled! Then your packages will do what you want. Hover over a point and right-click to open the menu in this place, there are many commands and directions. Point is STPT.
Learn to read ATO and skillfully use all the information. There All routes of all packages.
Falcon is the coolest weapon that can easily become just a piece of iron in your hands.
And vice versa - it can become your happy find, which has become for me. Falcon is my heart balm.It is in order to more fully manage AI packages, I created this thread. Thanks to everyone who helped me figure this out.
https://www.benchmarksims.org/forum/showthread.php?38525-Mission-planning-assigning-actions-to-a-package -
I know that DCS AI is basically crappy, but if you compare with standalone campaigns with a good reputation (I read lots of good things about Baltic Dragon’s ones for example).
I’d be curious to get the opinions of someone who knows BMS AND has actually flown this type of campaigns.Those are scripted scenarios (sequence of missions).
for example.
Really nice to play and to fly … once (Maybe twice if you failed to achieve your task).
But it is roughly always the same and once you know what you have to do or what will happens, it is just like in any video game such as
It is simply several “single” mission played in sequence. -
I don’t understand.
Is DCS better than BMS or the other way around?I suppose that it depends on your point of view, eye-candy, realism, depth.
best regards
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… Landing on taxiways and firing their own team mates … etc … performing barrel rolls around power lines.
I run away from those servers … I usually do not live long enough to perform a complete ramp start, killed by a player colliding me while trying to perform a low pass me to impress spectators.I experienced the same when I tried LOMAC around 2005-06. Some issues seem to me eternal…
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It’s funny - I’ll tell you one secret. In Falcon All the bots are commanded by the same AI)) And if the Computer defeats your packages - it means that you planned the task incorrectly for them, missed the time - in a word - you made a mistake.
The answer is simple - learn to win, it is a science of victory in the war and properly distribute their capabilities.
Falcon is not just the flight of your personal fighter. It is much more. This is exactly so in the DCS - there is all hope only for you and your plane - you are GOD))) But this does not happen.It is necessary to take into account the time, place and expected forces and actions of the enemy. He easily creates ambushes.Each flight point on the map has its own parameters, they must be controlled! Then your packages will do what you want. Hover over a point and right-click to open the menu in this place, there are many commands and directions. Point is STPT.
Learn to read ATO and skillfully use all the information. There All routes of all packages.
Falcon is the coolest weapon that can easily become just a piece of iron in your hands.
And vice versa - it can become your happy find, which has become for me. Falcon is my heart balm.You’re not really answering my question. Please enlighten me “my mistake” in the 2v2 scenario I described. How do you keep your wingmen alive when they face bandits that carry AA12 or amraams? I’ve built many TE’s and know how the mission builder works. I’m always open to learn and over the years I’ve managed to work with the AI and give them better chances using stand off weapons etc. That still doesn’t mean that the AI isn’t limited though. So no, I disagree that if the AI get shot down that it was just my mistake. But please explain to me using the mission builder how I can prevent AI flights from orbiting a target area for a long time that is defended by sams.
EDIT: I can send jammers like the Prowler or Growler with my package and that helps a lot. That is effective. However in real life jammer support is not always available. I can send a SEAD element with my package which also helps. However in real life weasels are also not always available or there are sometimes more sam/AAA sites than the SEAD flight can take out. So then you are still facing defenses. And a strike package should still be able to deal with these threats.
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You’re not really answering my question. Please enlighten me “my mistake” in the 2v2 scenario I described. How do you keep your wingmen alive when they face bandits that carry AA12 or amraams? I’ve built many TE’s and know how the mission builder works. I’m always open to learn and over the years I’ve managed to work with the AI and give them better chances using stand off weapons etc. That still doesn’t mean that the AI isn’t limited though. So no, I disagree that if the AI get shot down that it was just my mistake. But please explain to me using the mission builder how I can prevent AI flights from orbiting a target area for a long time that is defended by sams.
Read this thread. Maybe there is what you are looking for
https://www.benchmarksims.org/forum/showthread.php?38525-Mission-planning-assigning-actions-to-a-packageAnd do not forget - Good luck comes, and sometimes leaves. There will never be, when only your victory.
A chance is not a salary or an advance. This is a roulette that pleases and upsets. But the hope of victory dies last. Good luck and many victories.I believe that comparing 100% with real life is not necessary. This is still a game. Very Very cool, but a game. And it is necessary to build on this. Then everything will fall into place. Use the maximum opportunity of the game and you will get maximum pleasure. For many years. I always find something new that I did not know in Falcon. Like in his wife)) They are both beautiful.
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To get good experience out of multiplayer in a simulator, you basically need to fly with a group that takes it seriously, anyway. Besides detailed aircraft modeling, the procedures are another thing that needs to be learned. BMS does a good job at having AI follow them, at least, DCS less so. Either way, you need to have people who take time to learn the procedures and fly in a way that makes sense.
It’s the same with ArmA3, from what I’ve heard. I’d expect any serious simulation that has public servers to follow this pattern. It doesn’t matter how many servers there are, if none of them are any good. Only private servers are worth anything.
You just need a maker with sufficient imagination. All that is possible in DCS, just takes a lot of time and effort to make. The mission editor is quite capable, though like with all scripted solutions, it takes lot of work to get good results out of it.
I want to play and fly. Not educate myself to a programmer. Even for a single script I found a 70 page long manual.
LOL.In BMS4 just using ME you can build up (an not so accurate) but a whole different campaign only 15 min. You can change the OOB of every squadron of a campaign such short time. Then your only task is click on “start campaign”. And enjoy. You can fly against an advanced or in an early '90s setup. Learning to use ME for this goal is about 5 min.
A community driven sim has better tool than DCS by the community. Ehm…
DCS simply models planes well if they are finished or not buggy. But it fails model the tactical environment regardless it can model more things for ex. anti ARM/ASM capability of ships and some SAMs.
ED simply do not understand (and most of its followers) what makes a tactical simulator. Deeply modeled plane is not = with good tactical simulator. You need an environment. Such an environment which puts only very easy and small task if you wish to create and modify it. In this area DCS fails and failed since the release of LOMAC.As I know the library of DCS simply still does not have pre-made company or size units to build up fast missions. Why…? It would be so hard to make with 125 programmers? Or a usable UI? Or such a package and TOT code which was provided by the Falcon 4.0 20+ years ago…?
The only thing what is missing in BMS in this area better AI for ATO to avoid suicidal strikes.
Well, create that COMAO in BMS and have the AI fly that mission into a defended area and most likely all of them will be shot down. Every sim has its shortcomings… I agree that timing wise a mission like that is probably easier to make in BMS than DCS. But the DCS mission builder also allows you to do things that BMS doesn’t, like I described in the thread over in the software corner section.
Yes, but DCS uses the “Benchmark” while you can see terrain following IR missiles…
…with TVC like turns close to subsonic speed…
… with AAM you can shoot down another AAM…and so on.
As long as this is the “Benchmark” for $…
Ehm…
BMS 4.34 have bugs and drawback but does not state and promote which cannot fulfill. Like the F-18 modul. 2 year EA without AG radar… -
Those are scripted scenarios (sequence of missions).
for example.
Really nice to play and to fly … once (Maybe twice if you failed to achieve your task).
But it is roughly always the same and once you know what you have to do or what will happens, it is just like in any video game such as
It is simply several “single” mission played in sequence.Do notice that this is happens to be standard way of doing things for every single other genre, including many very successful (and fun) titles. Including X-wing Alliance, which I played maybe two or three times. Then again, it’s a really good Star Wars story, and I’ve had that one for a while. Then you have series like Ace Combat, which feature storyline branching, so depending on the game, they take two or three playthroughs to see the whole story (with one requiring five, but that was a special case).
There’s nothing wrong with either model. Not every sim needs infinite replayability of a dynamic campaign like what Falcon has. Indeed, due to sheer complexity of actually implementing that, I’ve only seen proper dynamic campaigns in Falcon 4, Starshatter and Il-2:1946. Can’t speak for Il-2, but Starshatter one wasn’t quite than fun as Falcon’s. You’re basically trying to build an RTS on top of a flight sim, and ideally it would be one in which two AI players will be able to play a sensible-looking match without human intervention. Given that, it’s amazing that Falcon 4.0 managed this at all, even with all the quirks.
@molnibalage:I want to play and fly. Not educate myself to a programmer. Even for a single script I found a 70 page long manual.
LOL.You can always play stuff made by others, and there’s a few campaigns for DCS out there. Yes, BMS has a better (if more constrained) editor, and does not require browbeating the AI to do what you want, but DCS editor allows you to make such things as scripted in-mission dialogue and trigger events. The editor in DCS is not meant for an average player. This is actually the normal way of doing things in gaming (ArmA is exactly the same, for instance, though the editor is better). Falcon is exceptional in that it makes TE design only a little more complicated than setting up a mission in the campaign.
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BMS is great realism but I think it should add some of this:
To get this sound you need a dedicated software to generate the noise. Using sample music pieces it is impossible to have such sound.
The failed Fighter Ops tried this. Long time ago I had a recorded sample when they demonstrated the engine noise on different RPM. At it is just a source. Calculating the propagation and doppler effect is another thing.
Not just imagine for this 10-20-30 planes ––> Close to infinite resource… -
DCS to BMS as to China cancer(crawl on all fours).
And here’s why - in DCS there is no task to make a good game. The only task is to make a model - everything else is rubbish. And never with such an attitude the DCS will even come close to Falcon - never.Oh man, that is so true, so absolutely true.
After a long period of abscence from DCS I’ve tried Eagle Dynamics’s F-16 model during the free trial times some weeks ago. And I must admit, "for me as a singleplayer it was a huge disappointment, maybe as expected
The same meaningless flying around in a fancy, shiny model as always, in an almost sterile (and corona-free for shure ) environment. So completerly different and boring compared to BMS 4.34, that I’ve deleted this modul after one hour of test flights right after.
Their gameplay still sucks, and will probably suck forever; the same with their sparse diversified, little maps.
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I suppose that it depends on your point of view, eye-candy, realism, depth.
best regards
Next time you quote do try to understand the terms such as sarcasm and context.
Or are you that bored and that’s the only interesting post you found in the thread.
Or maybe you’re as bright as one’s water when one drinks too much.
Or maybe all of the above.Not a maybe…gonna bring me some popcorn and beer for what’s coming next.
Just try to write something more inspiring and original next time.Regards.
Oops…sorry I used your line.
Did I follow your lead too much? -
Oh man, that is so true, so absolutely true.
After a long period of abscence from DCS I’ve tried Eagle Dynamics’s F-16 model during the free trial times some weeks ago. And I must admit, "for me as a singleplayer it was a huge disappointment, maybe as expected
The same meaningless flying around in a fancy, shiny model as always, in an almost sterile (and corona-free for shure ) environment. So completerly different and boring compared to BMS 4.34, that I’ve deleted this modul after one hour of test flights right after.
Their gameplay still sucks, and will probably suck forever; the same with their sparse diversified, little maps.
So you tried it for 1 hour and then concluded that their gameplay sucks? What else can you do in 1 hour than fly around in a sterile environment? In 1 hour you can’t exactly build a decent mission or anything. I’m not saying you are wrong, but I find 1 hour a little short….
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So you tried it for 1 hour and then concluded that their gameplay sucks? What else can you do in 1 hour than fly around in a sterile environment? In 1 hour you can’t exactly build a decent mission or anything. I’m not saying you are wrong, but I find 1 hour a little short….
It’s not about 1 hour, it is what it is. I said the same in the past without flying even 1 minute in DCS, it doesn’t mean anything. I know what it is from what it is.