AI wingmen don't do their assigned tasks..
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theres allways something critical broken for every version of falcon.
Unfortunately, that will be the case as long as Falcon4 exist.
Why add new stuff, when there is old broken stuff still not fixed ??
Once again … we are doing what we can … not what we want. It is not because we can add nice avionic stuffs, or improve few things that we can fix all AI defaults … it is not the same area.
We are not original authors of the code… we don’t know everything about it.
It is why some things can not be fixed without a complete rewrite of a part of the code … that can takes months or even several years …
So again … priority … priority … and priority …
What do you prefer … UP2 with bomb fix etc … or wait 1, 2, 3 or more years with no release to see (maybe?, if work is successful) only the AI code rewrite … ?
Maybe a workaround, or a fix will be found while working on a different area … ? … It is always possible … but again, AFAIK, no specific work is planned for AI behavior at this time.
Maybe the devs are not aware of the actually AI behavior
They are.
You know … we are working on BMS and testing it for a long long time …
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Honestly I haven’t had much of a problem with AI in the ground attack role. At least during interdiction flights. I usually pack us up with 6 AGM-65 and when we’re arriving at the target area they usually request permission to engage on their own. With the target STPT selected I either tell them weapons free or I give them the attack targets command. Then they launch Mavericks usually two per pass until they’re out.
I did have a problem with mk84s last time out though. I was bombing a depot and my wingman wouldn’t drop. Gave him the attack targets command and he said he would and then he overflew the target and didn’t drop anything. Failed the mission because my second bomb missed due to winds and AI didn’t drop at all. So the depot was only damaged.
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Can someone confirm that AI fires 2 Mavs at the same targets?Usually their hit ratio is 50-70%…Also LGBs accuracy is horrible, and they always drop pairs, even if their target is truck…Other than that,and campaign, AI is fine.
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Can someone confirm that AI fires 2 Mavs at the same targets?Usually their hit ratio is 50-70%…Also LGBs accuracy is horrible, and they always drop pairs, even if their target is truck…Other than that,and campaign, AI is fine.
haven’t seen AI firing 2 mavericks per vehicle, not sure about their lgb drop logic tho.
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But it should be planned, because it’s broken and need to be fixeded, IMHO.
It’s in no way realistic that AI fly 15- 20 miles into enemy territory to turn for their 2nd, 3rd or 4th run,
and then just fly over the target area without dropping bombs, but seems to be happy to burn fuel using the afterburner.If you really try to direct your AI to bomb assigned targets you might be lucky or not.
All in all the whole attack takes to long and depending on the enemy defence situation you’ll lose
some of the AI wingies.Maybe the devs are not aware of the actually AI behavior and what we are talking about.
(no offense here, … I know some devs are not flying much (with the AI).Cheers,
LSDespite it´s age and (possible) shortcomings the AI still on top of the game and most likely the best of any modern airplane sim. So to quote one´s famous quote:
“You should not ask what the AI can do for you, but what YOU can do for the AI”
It is in no way realistic to make a second pass in a high threat environment, and most certainly you wouldn´t even think about a 3rd or 4th pass - unless of course there is nothing to worry about. Then, on the other hand, you are fine in taking your time and make your run in 15-20 miles …
So, what I think needs to be fixed is not the AI, but the way virtual pilots do their mission planning
Cheers
TC -
I did have a problem with mk84s last time out though. I was bombing a depot and my wingman wouldn’t drop. Gave him the attack targets command and he said he would and then he overflew the target and didn’t drop anything. Failed the mission because my second bomb missed due to winds and AI didn’t drop at all. So the depot was only damaged.
No problem here. Just made a quick mission and have my AI wingman take out a bridge with his 2 Mk-84 just fine. One pass, no flyin around or some other stuff that is reported here …
Cheers
TC -
Can someone confirm that AI fires 2 Mavs at the same targets?Usually their hit ratio is 50-70%…Also LGBs accuracy is horrible, and they always drop pairs, even if their target is truck…Other than that,and campaign, AI is fine.
Can´t confirm that. Then again, you have all the tools (Mission builder and ACMI) at hand to check that yourself. Just build a small mission and see how they do
Cheers
TC -
Example:
We’re a 4 ship flight in a training mission. The objective is to take out 2 bridges (4 objects) surrounded by various SAM & AAA.
When ordering the wingmen to take out SAMs & AAAs with HARMs they do as told without any problem.But when ordered to take out the bridge with dumb bombs they affirm the order but then just fly around. I locked up the bridge with the ground radar and ordered the to attack my target.
After a couple of minutes I issued a re-order. The element ran out of fuel and headed home. My wingman dropped bombs on one of the bridges after a looong while and multiple orders (and missed).Question:
I understand that the AI isn’t perfect but is there some kind of trick or hidden lore when issueing orders to AI wingmen. Something like… ordering them twice in a row, first issueing waepons free and then attack… or something similar.thanks
I would rather have 2 flight´s (one SEAD and one for the bridge), but that might be just me
Other than that my wingman just took out a bridge with Mk-84 without a problem, so I would say it´s not the AI …Cheers
TC -
@T-C:
So, what I think needs to be fixed is not the AI, but the way virtual pilots do their mission planning
As a single player, flying F4 since release 1998, you can trust me to know how to do mission planning,
or how to be a babysitter for the AI, etc.AI ground bombing was more or less fine from the very first release to OF 4.x, now in BMS it’s broken.
YOU are talking about some quick TE’s, NOW fly a complete campaign from day 1
and fly mostly any kind of bombing missions with your wingies,
THEN you’ll see how good and realistic the AI works.Hell, I’ve escorted a B-52 flight (in an addon Korea campaign) and even they just circled at the target area
without dropping a single bomb, but some of them got shoot down by enemy air defence.Yeah, sure it was not the originally Korea campaign, but I also flew originally Korea KTO
and had similar experience.Regarding ground bombing the AI = Absent Intelligence,
and I can nothing do for my wingie, except to not load them with bombs at all.
… or send him RTB right after takeoff
… or shoot his a… in piecesCheers,
LS -
Haven’t had any experience with other Falcons to refer too. But I have to agree with lazy when it comes to ground bombings. It’s like a frustrating game of Roulette trying to get wingmen/packages to drop their bombs. Sometimes they will, and other times (for no reason) they just circle above the target in full afterburn until bingo. I try issuing a rejoin command, and then waiting for them to get in formation, before taking them +6nm out and then reissuing “attack my target” - and other such tricksBut when they’re in “dumb mode” (which is 90% of the time on bombing runs) they simply refuse to play ball.
And yes (from my experience) they drop two bombs on a single pass - always.
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I usually don’t have a problem with the AI bombing ground targets. I DO have problems with them requesting to engage 100nm out, and then when I do get within 5nm of the target and tell them weapons free, they go off and try to engage fighters that are 60nm off. I would tell them to attack my target, but that puts in a predicament if there’s only one target–then I don’t get to blow anything up
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I’m flyng an Israel vs Syria campaign and doing BAI missions one after another with different loadouts: Mavs, CBUs, combined. I noticed they always fire two missiles per pass but i’ve not checked if they fire at the same target, same thing for cluster bombs. I usually try to give the first attack order from at least 15 miles away, but i’ve noticed that sometimes even ordering to attack a target that is only 5 miles out works, depending on their aspect and position. From the debriefing it often results that many Mavs just missed, i don’t know why. But the real problem is with bombs, even guided ones, like GBU 31. They often miss, even if AI is lead and player is not giving any order, modifyng the attack at all. Another thing i’ve noticed is that they fly too much low in ground attacks, often being fired at, calling “engaged defensive” and in missions wich involves a station time with multiple passes, like Interdiction, they get shot down one after another, especially with AI Lead! I hope devs find a way to improve AI, maybe with a Hard Deck option, decided by lead. It’s stupid to fire Mavericks from 2000 feet when you can safely launch and drop remaining well above 10000 or more.
Another thing i’ve noticed is the “one pass haul ass” with Mav missiles. In Allied Force they often fires all carried missiles in the first pass, in BMS always two and no more. Plus, i tried to fly with CBUs only, while my wingmens were carrying only Mavs: I was not able to issue a single attack order. They replied as usual but never fired a shot, even if the order was given at a reasonable distance. Instead when i carry Mavs too, even in different numbers or sets, they comply ad fire, even if my selected weapon is not the Mav. I think they use first and second weapon of choice to attack: first missiles, second bombs.
Can anyone explain the difference between order 1 Attack my Target and order 8 Attack collateral Targets? Thanks.
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As a single player, flying F4 since release 1998, you can trust me to know how to do mission planning,
or how to be a babysitter for the AI, etc.AI ground bombing was more or less fine from the very first release to OF 4.x, now in BMS it’s broken.
Well well well, this of course changes everything!
I do believe you when saying you fly F4 since release and I´m deeply impressed, your statements here however make me think that you don´t know how to mission plan so that the AI does what he is supposed to do.However, I don´t want to start a fight here about who is right and who is wrong. So if you like to think the AI is broken, fine with me. I think he´s not, and I can proof it
YOU are talking about some quick TE’s, NOW fly a complete campaign from day 1
and fly mostly any kind of bombing missions with your wingies,
THEN you’ll see how good and realistic the AI works.You are assuming that I´ll get my knowledge from flying TE´s, your assumtion however is wrong. FWIW I just started a ITO campaign and in the second mission my wingman did dumb-bomb an EWR Radar just fine.
Prior to this I was flying a Korean Campaign and did not only set PAK´s, Mission Type and Target´s but also build the ATO for 2 Squads as well as the Fighter Mafia and some F-15E´s where needed.
I did only fly A/G Missions (as the F-16 would), loaded my planes with realistic loadouts and guess what, Allied Forces did just fine. On my last save we did progress a good way north, sky´s were clear and not so many moving ground targets left to shoot atBut all this doesn´t matter much as the AI routine for Campaign and TE is absolutely the same - the outcome however may be different.
I did the TE for two reasons:
- to verify what I already knew
- more important, to validate and being able to show the results to anyone not believing the AI is working. Mission and ACMI file available upon request.
Hell, I’ve escorted a B-52 flight (in an addon Korea campaign) and even they just circled at the target area
without dropping a single bomb, but some of them got shoot down by enemy air defence.Diving into what went wrong here would become quiet lenghty and I´m running out of time. I might come back to that quote if there is interest tho at a later time.
Greetings
TC -
Haven’t had any experience with other Falcons to refer too. But I have to agree with lazy when it comes to ground bombings. It’s like a frustrating game of Roulette trying to get wingmen/packages to drop their bombs. Sometimes they will, and other times (for no reason) they just circle above the target in full afterburn until bingo. I try issuing a rejoin command, and then waiting for them to get in formation, before taking them +6nm out and then reissuing “attack my target” - and other such tricksBut when they’re in “dumb mode” (which is 90% of the time on bombing runs) they simply refuse to play ball.
And yes (from my experience) they drop two bombs on a single pass - always.
You think that something can be broken at some times, when at other times it is not?
Either it is broken or it´s not, so if it´s only at part times working there must be some other reason for “there refusal of cooperation”, right ??Well, guess what. I drop 2 bombs on a single pass as well - am I broken too (I´m broke tho<gg>).
Why spare one?Greetings
TC</gg> -
Yes, AI is quite dumb sometimes, especially agains ground targets in TE. Even against pre planned OCA target and weapons free many time chooses a new approach direction regardless of shortest direction. AI fly 10-20 nm from target then perform the bombing. Other side of the coin - I have screenshot about it - when after dropping bombs F-5E used unguided rockets against vehicles in campaign. (I experienced during tests of Korea '80s)
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AI are dumb … yes … but that is not showstopper at all.
Learn how to use them … know their limits … and plan mission accordingly.
… hope that one day that will be better.
I can do it, why don’t you?
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In FF AI also dumb but at least always in the same way.
In BMS4 I cannot use AI even for an OCA missions. AI controlled AC sometimes attack the target, sometimes not. Even if they are engage the target somtimes choose its own attack direction…
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@T-C:
You think that something can be broken at some times, when at other times it is not?
Either it is broken or it´s not, so if it´s only at part times working there must be some other reason for “there refusal of cooperation”, right ??Well, guess what. I drop 2 bombs on a single pass as well - am I broken too (I´m broke tho<gg>).
Why spare one?Greetings
TC</gg>I don’t have a great deal of experience with F4, so I’m not really in a position to judge whether the AI is “broken”, but as a player it just seems almost impossible to determine how to accurately control AI bombing.
I play a lot of games which require AI management (ArmA, Hearts of Iron, Men of War, Homeworld, etc) and so I know that any game which enables complex AI control is never perfect. The human player must create certain conditions (positioning, etc) before the AI will obey orders predictably. If the conditions are not correct the AI in these games will appear “dumb”. So, half of the skill in controlling AI is creating the correct conditions before issuing any orders. So perhaps my problem is that I’ve just not learnt the conditions required for Falcon AI.
I’m not a “lazy gamer” so I will continue to search for the magic formula for controlling F4 AI bombings. But so far, it has been very difficult and I haven’t found any pattern or logic behind their behaviour. When I designate a target 10nm out (in a threat free area), order my wing to “attack my target” and he just flies above that target in full AB burning his fuel before going bingo and then just RTBs…something might be a bit wrong with his logic I think.
But it is definitely not a game-breaker. It just means I have no faith in AI bombing abilities and don’t feel I can rely on them in missions …that’s a shame for an otherwise awesome game.
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In FF AI also dumb but at least always in the same way.
In BMS4 I cannot use AI even for an OCA missions. AI controlled AC sometimes attack the target, sometimes not. Even if they are engage the target somtimes choose its own attack direction…
THATS the biggest problem. I don’t mind the AI being “dumb” really, as long as I can predict that dumbness and work around it :D. but I can’t find any pattern for F4’s dumbness - it just seems random
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In BMS4 I cannot use AI even for an OCA missions. AI controlled AC sometimes attack the target, sometimes not. Even if they are engage the target somtimes choose its own attack direction…
Would be a pleasure one day to take you on my wing on a MP session, and show you how to do with IA … With me, AI are very good in OCA mission using BLU107.
Maybe because I’m less kind than you with them at debrief (?)