BMS Other Fighters Mafia (BMSOFM) Journal
-
…funny…when I use the Paddle on my Warthog stick I use my ring finger and my pinky stays on the pinky switch. Sometimes I use my pinky and ring finger together.
There is currently NO Hornet grip commercially available that has the Paddle switch correctly represented. The RealSim one is actually the most correct, in that it doesn’t include a Paddle switch - the Hornet Paddle is actually part of a box on the stick column itself.
-
- When I use paddle switch, I move all my fingers - in that, I don’t leave anything on the pinky. I have very few shifted functions, but I don’t have anything that involves paddle and pinky.
Finding a good dx shift is tricky. I can understand you saying it should be central - I will have to try that. My preferred option is shift on the throttle, but I find the Warthog is difficult for that, at least when F16 controls are mapped. And I agree, you have to place it relative to the shifted functions.
Using the throttle button is a good experiment!
- and 6) Okay, you’re experience is helpful. I agree, if I have switches I use a lot I like to put them on ‘easy to push’ switches do DS on the Coolie makes sense. I don’t use antenna elevation much (perhaps I don’t do enough AA!). I think others use the “friction” axis for antenna, but I’ve never really liked reaching down to that axis, so it’s currently unmapped.
If the carrier pitches and rolls, that great! It all adds to the immersion. I will have to try some carrier ops!
Please keep posting your thoughts and experience as it is helpful. When I get a chance to do some carrier ops, I will do the same.
BTW, it looks like there is some work on the modelling/textures in the Mods sub-forum.
Hi, Guys. Mypc, I’m very glad you’re enjoying PB. I’m happy if I can increase someone else’s enjoyment of BMS. That’s the purpose of this thread
2) Like Brother Stevie, my pinky stays on the pinky, but that kind of thing is exactly why I’m presenting PB as options . Meanwhile, I’m getting much more comfortable with your Shift/FOV on throttle push button option. I’m further motivated since the RL FOV is the throttle pinky. So, I’ve moved ATC to the throttle POV (via Voice Attack),stick pinky is just “Undesignate”, and MWS,A/R is back to an unshifted function on S1. I’m putting some focus on making main HOTAS functions unshifted.
I’m also making progress with using MFD USB’s rather then DMS left/right. To be honest, a more accurate description is “less uncomfortable”, but I’m getting there. It IS adding some “Bug Flavor” for me. It is also helping with minimizing using shift functions on “cheats” like radar snowplow and cursor zero on the HOTAS. ;). One thing that helps me, that may make it more difficult for others, is that I am a left-handed mouse user. My mouse is right next to the throttle
4)-6) I’d like to put ant.ele. on an axis, but haven’t figured that out. In the meantime, I don’t use it that much, either.
The carrier’s modeled pitching is real enough that the Cat doesn’t fire until the bow is coming up. At least it seems that way. I have to say, with all honesty, that for a “Viper Sim” our Devs have put significant thought into carrier Ops.
NEW STUFF-
Our BMS manuals and the 'Net, understandably enough, focus on the landing patterns and procedures. I did some RTFI’ing and found a little on the take-off pattern. Here’s what I found, and Stevie( or anyone), definitely feel free to chime in on this.
The RL procedure I found is to launch, retake control of the stick(normal procedure is hands-off on the CAT[don’t forget flaps and takeoff trim!]), do a 50 ft. clearance turn(to starboard off the bow Cat’s, and to port off the waist) , climb to 500 ft., and proceed on the departure heading out to 10 miles. At that Ten Mile Radial, you turn port or starboard to intersect with your departure course to WPT 2, holding 10 miles from the carrier…
In BMS the waist Cats are not active, and human pilots can only launch off Cat 2( the port bow Cat). Also, the AI wingie tends to hold 'burner longer, go above and to port of you, and at 2 miles turns to port. So, the option I’m doing is to do my right clearance turn, hold MIL and 500 ft to 2 miles, then arch to port no matter what my departure course is, climbing to the BMS Bug “standard” 26k cruise altitude… Launching with TCN on the “MPCD” (lower MFD) is very helpful in determining distance to carrier. -
It really depends on which Cat you are coming off of, I think - there are two Cats on the bow, and if you are coming off the starboard one you should clear to starboard, if you are coming off the port one you should clear to port - object being not to cross a departing jet’s flight path or block the SAR in the event of a cold shot off either bow Cat and someone going into the water. Nimitz Class CVNs actually have four Cats - two at the bow, and two at the waist. Unsure as to how they sequence them, but the deck op-tempo is very quick…
In RL, they don’t wait until the “deck is coming up” to do a launch - I know plenty of guys that have been fired on the down pitch…and I’ve been fired on the down in the Trainer as well myself! It’s all about timing and tempo - when it’s time for you to go, they send you.
Yes - all Hornet CV launches are done hands off, and the jet will automatically capture AOA…in theory - just setting TO Trim isn’t the end all. You also need to adjust Trim for your ordnance load, fuel state, and wind over deck; i.e. your takeoff GWT / CG and any adjustment due to what the Cat may (or may not…) be delivering that day. One of the biggest differences between operating a Viper and any Navy aircraft is how much your GWT factors into operations…from what I can tell BMS Viper ops pretty much ignore this, but in Naval ops GWT considerations are a matter of survival. Same for landing - the wire can only trap so many Klbs before it breaks…and also only so many times.
Post launch holding and entry should be established and assigned to marshal for refuel/push.
Also - “FOV” adjustment in the Hornet is nothing like FOV in the Viper. In fact, it’s not even called that - it’s an EXP switch, and the second one is for Auto Throttles; both on the L/H grip. And if you want to be “more Hornet like” you will fly with your FCR on the R/H display…that’s default for the Hornet.
-
It really depends on which Cat you are coming off of, I think - there are two Cats on the bow, and if you are coming off the starboard one you should clear to starboard, if you are coming off the port one you should clear to port - object being not to cross a departing jet’s flight path or block the SAR in the event of a cold shot off either bow Cat and someone going into the water. Nimitz Class CVNs actually have four Cats - two at the bow, and two at the waist. Unsure as to how they sequence them, but the deck op-tempo is very quick…
In RL, they don’t wait until the “deck is coming up” to do a launch - I know plenty of guys that have been fired on the down pitch…and I’ve been fired on the down in the Trainer as well myself! It’s all about timing and tempo - when it’s time for you to go, they send you.
Yes - all Hornet CV launches are done hands off, and the jet will automatically capture AOA…in theory - just setting TO Trim isn’t the end all. You also need to adjust Trim for your ordnance load, fuel state, and wind over deck; i.e. your takeoff GWT / CG and any adjustment due to what the Cat may (or may not…) be delivering that day. One of the biggest differences between operating a Viper and any Navy aircraft is how much your GWT factors into operations…from what I can tell BMS Viper ops pretty much ignore this, but in Naval ops GWT considerations are a matter of survival. Same for landing - the wire can only trap so many Klbs before it breaks…and also only so many times.
.Post launch holding and entry should be established and assigned to marshal for refuel/push
Also - “FOV” adjustment in the Hornet is nothing like FOV in the Viper. In fact, it’s not even called that - it’s an EXP switch, and the second one is for Auto Throttles; both on the L/H grip. And if you want to be “more Hornet like” you will fly with your FCR on the R/H display…that’s default for the Hornet.Hi, Stevie, I appreciate everything you wrote in post 8, and BTW my FCR is on the right MFD. I like what you write as I know you have RL experience. So, please don’t think I’m disagreeing because I’m trying to phrase things within the context of what I see in BMS .
The launch procedure I described was from the only diagram I could find on the subject. It did show both jets clearing to the right on the bow Cat’s. What it didn’t say, but what I believe, is that Lead(or at least the first launched) is on Cat 1, not 2 as in BMS.
I’d love BMS to model the GWT/CG factors. Maybe in 3-4 weeks…
Please explain “Post launch holding and entry should be established and assigned to marshal for refuel/push”, and how it might relate to BMS
I think it have read about FOV being called EXP, though though interestingly enough p. 1-2-4 of NATOPS calls the button Raid/FLIR FOV. Anyway, for the sake of BMS, allow me to stick with FOV.
You’re right about the ATC having it’s own button on the throttle, my Warthog doesn’t ,though. And, that raises another point for me. As I test these PB options( in the Hornet and Viper,btw) , I’m doing it with a Warthog. That’s what I have. I can just hope I’m not confusing someone with another brand of HOTAS. -
Yes - both the Cats and the Arresting Gear have to be set for the GWT of the departing/approaching jet - every shot/approach. Back when I was working T-45A one of the things we discovered was that you couldn’t dial the Cats back low enough to handle a jet that light without ripping the nose gear off of it…and so the Cats on the Training CVs also had to be modified!
You (and the devs) should be consulting this NATOPS for how air ops are managed/conducted in the vicinity of the CV:
http://www.navyair.com/CV_NATOPS_Manual.pdf
This is the one that actually explains how the “airfield” is operated. It’s a bit dated, but ya gotta use what you can find, and it’s pretty interesting reading…and it does seem to bear out what you say about departing with a starboard offset. I only said what I did because I know a driver that once went into the water off a soft Cat…and then got run over by the CV after ejecting - CRAP! Bear in mind that what you find in the NFM-000 is slanted to qual training and may not be the complete picture. I’ve been out on a CV to observe mixed jet types during quals…day and night. It’s jaw dropping to watch…especially from the LSO plat!
As mentioned, there really isn’t a “Lead” until everyone is in the air and stacked (you may hear me use “marshaled” and “stacked” used somewhat interchangeably; “stacked” being more of an inflight reference")…I guess I should say “joined up”, and every departing Section/Division, etc. has a pre-assigned departure routing to do this. Everything done on the deck is done strictly on a timeline, and the Yellow Shirts rule the deck under the Air Boss until a jet is airborne - so with your ATO what should be happening is that you get a launch time and direction on deck to meet that launch time. Anything more is a matter of your Section/Division/Tactial brief. Depending on how long the deck cycle is and how far the jets have to go to get on station, there may also be an initial tanking evolution post launch - more critical during recovery, though. I find you can generally go “off-script” with BMS as far as operating procedure goes once you understand what BMS will do and add heaps closer realism in a lot of cases.
As mentioned, “the book” isn’t the end all - because there is a library of books, and the CV NATOPS is just one more book in that library. Post launch procedure is covered in the CV NATOPS…but bear in mind that it can always be modified by number of jets in the pattern, emergencies, timeline requirements, etc.
EXP really has more to do with formats that are specifically not FLIR, and keep in mind that Hornet HOTAS makes Viper HOTAS look like a toy, for the most part…talk about multi-functions!!! RAID has nothing to do with the FLIR, forex…and to make matters even worse, it’s sometimes used as a “shift key”.
I’d like to see the devs get functioning and decently modeled arresting gear in place at all shore based airfields that are supposed to have them at a first pass - end and mid-field wires. This will go a great way to them getting onto the CV, and also make handling field emergencies have some more realistic options/scenarios. I think I got some dev feedback in the past that shore based gear doesn’t work…or that the mid-field gear doesn’t work?
You can actually do a fair job with a WH throttle set…if you’re not too used to using actual Hornet HOTAS. Personally, I’m going to have to have a WINWING setup before I’ll touch anybody’s Hornet sim…!
-
Stevie, thanks for that fan-TAS-tic link. You bet I’m going to have fun with that. I’ll be going riding for a few day and during down times I often study BMS stuff. Wanna guess what I’ll be studying this week? Do you have any other handy links?
I only briefly glanced at this, but it’s already answered 2 questions I had. How does Case 1 -3 effect departure, and what speed to maintain?
So, here is the actual Case 1 departure for a Hornet…
“After a clearing turn, proceed straight ahead at 500 feet paralleling the BRC. At 7 nm, turn to intercept the 10-nm
arc, maintaining visual conditions until established on the departure radial. The 500-foot restriction is lifted after
7 nm if the climb can be continued in visual conditions. Jets shall maintain 300 knots until VMC on top.”
Tonight I’m going to get some BMS in, and see what the AI wingie does in a “real” departure.
Another thing I noticed is that BMS seems to have done a very good job with our naval manual.
Thanks again, Compadre.I’m going to try to get some BMS tonight, and I’m going to see what the AI wingie does in a “real” departure.
-
Stevie, thanks for that fan-TAS-tic link. You bet I’m going to have fun with that. I’ll be going riding for a few day and during down times I often study BMS stuff. Wanna guess what I’ll be studying this week? Do you have any other handy links?
I only briefly glanced at this, but it’s already answered 2 questions I had. How does Case 1 -3 effect departure, and what speed to maintain?
So, here is the actual Case 1 departure for a Hornet…
“After a clearing turn, proceed straight ahead at 500 feet paralleling the BRC. At 7 nm, turn to intercept the 10-nm
arc, maintaining visual conditions until established on the departure radial. The 500-foot restriction is lifted after
7 nm if the climb can be continued in visual conditions. Jets shall maintain 300 knots until VMC on top.”
Tonight I’m going to get some BMS in, and see what the AI wingie does in a “real” departure.
Another thing I noticed is that BMS seems to have done a very good job with our naval manual.
Thanks again, Compadre.I’m going to try to get some BMS tonight, and I’m going to see what the AI wingie does in a “real” departure.
Quick update before retiring for the night. I just did 2 take offs using the above procedure. Upon reaching 500 ft. I did a gentle 10 degree right turn then immediately back to my departure heading. No problems with AI. At 2 miles he started to turn left, as previously mentioned, but immediately returned to formation. So, the procedure as above does work.
-
Here’s two more… a couple Navy Training guides. To get back to the beginning of CV ops -
https://www.cnatra.navy.mil/local/docs/pat-pubs/P-816.pdf
This one is what students train to for CV ops.
Getting away from CV ops -
https://www.cnatra.navy.mil/local/docs/pat-pubs/P-1289.pdf
This one is a Training syllabus for A/A section tactics.
Pay less attention to the fact that these are written for the T-45 (which is our Navy Trainer jet now) but more to the principles and learning objectives; and note how Navy ops differ from what you’ve been doing with Vipers. And also compare the T-45 operational speeds to what is detailed in the CV NATOPS. You may find more similarities than I am aware of.
Also - learn to fly to your Indexer and to ignore the HUD bracket…it’s back-ass-ward in the F-16 compared to the Navy one(s). In Navy jets the top and bottom of the HUD bracket corresponds to the upper and lower arrows on the Indexer, and this one of many reasons I won’t fly the BMS Hornet…it just plain messes me up for too many other things I have to do RL-wise. The Indexer itself is the same…similar…though.
Other than for admin, I generally ignore speeds in the pattern because what matters is being on-speed and maintaining interval - and on-speed varies with GWT, so there is no real “standard” for it. I also always land the Viper on-speed…which is far easier than in a Hornet with a proper to RL Indexer because the Viper Indexer only displays three indication/states and the Hornet Indexer has five states. Very easy to capture on-speed in a BMS Viper!
-
Here’s two more… a couple Navy Training guides. To get back to the beginning of CV ops -
https://www.cnatra.navy.mil/local/docs/pat-pubs/P-816.pdf
This one is what students train to for CV ops.
Getting away from CV ops -
https://www.cnatra.navy.mil/local/docs/pat-pubs/P-1289.pdf
This one is a Training syllabus for A/A section tactics.
Pay less attention to the fact that these are written for the T-45 (which is our Navy Trainer jet now) but more to the principles and learning objectives; and note how Navy ops differ from what you’ve been doing with Vipers. And also compare the T-45 operational speeds to what is detailed in the CV NATOPS. You may find more similarities than I am aware of.
Also - learn to fly to your Indexer and to ignore the HUD bracket…it’s back-ass-ward in the F-16 compared to the Navy one(s). In Navy jets the top and bottom of the HUD bracket corresponds to the upper and lower arrows on the Indexer, and this one of many reasons I won’t fly the BMS Hornet…it just plain messes me up for too many other things I have to do RL-wise. The Indexer itself is the same…similar…though.
Other than for admin, I generally ignore speeds in the pattern because what matters is being on-speed and maintaining interval - and on-speed varies with GWT, so there is no real “standard” for it. I also always land the Viper on-speed…which is far easier than in a Hornet with a proper to RL Indexer because the Viper Indexer only displays three indication/states and the Hornet Indexer has five states. Very easy to capture on-speed in a BMS Viper!
Hi, Compadre. Thanks for the further links!
I’m aware the Bug works differently in landing procedures, indexer differences , etc. For example, if you look at a NATOPS diagram it gives “speed hints” based on % rpm, not airspeed. Keep the tips coming, as I intend to get to that in PB’s checklists and procedures phase. -
Hi, Compadre. Thanks for the further links!
I’m aware the Bug works differently in landing procedures, indexer differences , etc. For example, if you look at a NATOPS diagram it gives “speed hints” based on % rpm, not airspeed. Keep the tips coming, as I intend to get to that in PB’s checklists and procedures phase.Yeah…generally it’s AOA and fuel flow that they key to. Other than that it’s all on-speed.
Learn to do a “Navy flare” too - arrest sink rate with power, and then snap to idle just before touchdown. I had to have a former USN Agressor guy clue me on this technique before I could quit snapping the gear off of the Viper at touchdown!
-
Basic question, but how do you switch between control setups to move between the F16 and F18? I use the Alternative launcher.
Or, do I have to remap each time?
-
You can actually save and load key binding/setting profiles within BMS Setup at startup…I do it all the time when I’m noodling setups or changing controllers.
-
Yeah…generally it’s AOA and fuel flow that they key to. Other than that it’s all on-speed.
Learn to do a “Navy flare” too - arrest sink rate with power, and then snap to idle just before touchdown. I had to have a former USN Agressor guy clue me on this technique before I could quit snapping the gear off of the Viper at touchdown!
REally… IF the “Squid” taught you flying an “Airforce” bird… then yo really sucked :twisted::twisted::twisted:
:uham: :wfish: :jaw: :flame:
p.s… sorry , I couldnt resist… you know it :rofl:
-
He flew F-16Ns as an Aggressor/Instructor…but he was a Hornet driver at the time I got his advise. Incidentally, you can pretty much tell a Navy guy flying a Viper in the HUD tape because they land on-speed and not fast like the HUD bracket has you doing it.
…and…I’ve just flown a multitude of Trainers ranging from A-10 to KC-135 to Harrier to T-45A to…so it’s pretty easy to mix me up in a sim. You should have heard the S.O. chastising me for being a “Viper driver” the last time I went to the CV in a Trainer. I was flat on approach, but I hooked…much to his surprise - “wait…you caught a wire?”. What a laf-fest!
-
I am missing something.
I can’t even use the UFC/ICP to call Tower or Departure to request taxi/takeoff without Com1/Com2/DCS/Rocker/DED etc.
Playing around with the buttons, ICP and the “DCS” on the left, I get a few different results, but can’t lock into a preset frequency and I don’t really know what I am doing.
Is there a guide to using the F18 cockpit? The Carrier Training document assumes this most basic of activities is known and the F18 Cockpit document has only callbacks and buttons listed, not how to use them.
-
I am missing something.
I can’t even use the UFC/ICP to call Tower or Departure to request taxi/takeoff without Com1/Com2/DCS/Rocker/DED etc.
Playing around with the buttons, ICP and the “DCS” on the left, I get a few different results, but can’t lock into a preset frequency and I don’t really know what I am doing.
Is there a guide to using the F18 cockpit? The Carrier Training document assumes this most basic of activities is known and the F18 Cockpit document has only callbacks and buttons listed, not how to use them.
Hi, Mypc.Hopefully I can help with both your questions…Firstly , unfortunately there isn’t a way to load, or rather save, separate HOTAS settings using AL, since it works off the BMS Full keyfile. I anticipated someone asking your question, and may have a way ,but it’s a little complicated. So, what I trying to do with PB is give a Hornet Feel but be useable in the Viper. That’s why I’ve tested all the options presented in the Viper. I guess you could say I’m aiming more at people who mostly fly , or want to fly, the Bug. Me, I’m about 70/30 Hornet , and when I fly the Viper I’m using the options I describe here. So, to what extent you want to implement PB depends on which jet you want "the feel " of.
As for your next question, these are things I hope to help with in the next phase. For, now, if you RTFM how the Vipers comms work, all you’ll need to do is translate the Bug Cockpit into “Bug”.
In that regard…
SimICPCom1 and 2 are the Comm 1 and 2 buttons in the Viper, and the volumes are the volumes for 1(UHF) and 2(VHF). The radios in the RL Bug are quite a bit different, so here is another PB compromise.
The ADF Button is the DED
The on/off button turns on the ICP(UFC is Bugspeak). You have to turn it on for it to display.
So, to contact the tower in the Bug Load the DTC as usual, turn the volumes on , push SimICPCom1 and select Channel 2. then enter on the ICP/UFC. Then using the 4 posit. Comms switch you hopefully have on your HOTAS, transmit on Comms1(Comms UP on HOTAS) and you should be good to go , IF you’re Voice Attack
Sidenote: I will be starting the checklist phase soon, so let me ask you a question. What format, similar to our BMS manuals and docs, would be most helpful to you in learning the Bug? -
You should be able to save and load different key files in/from BMS Setup prior to launching a mission. I’ve done this many time in the past as I was trying out different controllers - I do my bindings and Save them with an appropriate name. I see no reason you couldn’t do this for any jet/controller combination you intend to fly, and then just load the right one from Setup prior to launching your mission.
I have Setup files for CH, Cougar, and Warthog controllers, forex.
-
You should be able to save and load different key files in/from BMS Setup prior to launching a mission. I’ve done this many time in the past as I was trying out different controllers - I do my bindings and Save them with an appropriate name. I see no reason you couldn’t do this for any jet/controller combination you intend to fly, and then just load the right one from Setup prior to launching your mission.
I have Setup files for CH, Cougar, and Warthog controllers, forex.
Hi, Stevie. It sounds like you’ve done what i experimented with, so let’s compare notes. You are right that different keyfiles can be added within the UI. And if you go into BMS via the standard launcher they will work. However, Mypc uses the Alternate Launcher, and as we know AL defaults to BMS-Full. You can get around that by renaming whatever keyfile you want to BMS-Full, but to me that becomes complicated, when you’re talking about switching back and forth between jets.
Let’s use a specific example. In the Viper (on the Warthog HOTAS) my Hat 4 forward was CMS up. In our PB Hornet, it’s MRM as our “Select Aim-120 Emulator.” So, how do we make it so these can be switched on the fly, without remapping the HOTAS?
What I tried was to go into BMS via the standard launcher and select the BasicTM shifted Warthog keyfile that was in the installation. It loaded and I applied it. The problem is none of it worked in Instant Action. When I reloaded BMS-Full everything worked, but it was my new PB settings. For me , working with the standard UI has always been hit or miss. How would you do it?
Plus, for me at least, muscle memory is an issue! I don’t want to hop in the Viper and “select AMRAAM” when I want to fire a chaff, or vice versa.
Anyway, all the above is why I took the approach of making something with Bug Flavor, yet would work in the Viper. -
I guess my work-around was to not use the Alternative Launcher…so I’ve never noted any diff in behavior. I guess I’d point this out to the devs of the Alternative Launcher and try to get them to make it work for this case!
-
I guess my work-around was to not use the Alternative Launcher…so I’ve never noted any diff in behavior. I guess I’d point this out to the devs of the Alternative Launcher and try to get them to make it work for this case!
Concur. Or, make AL so it can work with more then one keyfile.