Overhead break speeds
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IIRC, 300KIAS comes from MCH F-16 Vol.3 and/or Dash1 …
This is the typical recommended. procedure. But it may be subject to different S.O.P.s
Can’t be 40° 2.2g … since 60° is 2g …
http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/performance/q0146.shtml
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Thanks for the feedback guys,
Is there any indication that the speed is different for F-16blk52?
I get this as a reason to set the speed to 350 ktThx and happy flying
Snowman
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It really depends on where you are. If you are mixing with civil traffic you should hold to 250 and below within an ATA. Otherwise it’s “course rules” within a Restricted area.
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Indeed I think it depends where you are and there is a bit of leeway I think. And it might depend which service you are in. Air Force might be more strict than Navy from what I heard. Mover has a video here where he does an overhead ‘carrier’ break at 800 ft and he says that he will not mention speed, but it’s clear that he’s quite a bit faster than 300 kts.:
Around 20 minutes into the video.
There were also great stories on Tomcat Sunset from Hoser how they played with the overhead break at NAS Miramar. F-14’s frequently coming in at 500 kts. Often that was allowed, but sometimes they got a new admiral as base commander who was a lot more strict and they tried to stop it. So then they had stories how the tower used pencil marks to check the speed, making the pilots break earlier so the marks were useless. Or the admiral sitting next to the runway with radar detector, making pilots coming in from all kinds of different angles.
Of course, these were the 70’s/80’s. Things were a lot different then I suppose.F-16’s here seem to do 1500 ft around 300 to 350 kts although every now and then they do seem to go faster. But in real life they frequently seem to fly the break a bit sportier than what I see sim guys do in youtube videos. So it does seem they have a bit more leeway. But it probably depends on service and country and which airport you are.
The Navy seem to have a bit more leeway, especially around the boat when there’s nobody else around.
Perhaps it’s similar to what I once read from an F-14B pilot. With the new GE engines they weren’t allowed to do afterburner take offs. But somebody once asked on a forum if they could do afterburner take offs and his answer was: depends on who’s looking. Maybe that applies to the overhead break too.
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300 KTS 1500 AGL
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Do a search on youtube and see what the real pilots do. There are quite a few hud video’s of incentive rides if you search:
This guy flies 340 kts @ 1500 ft AGL.
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Given the option, I prefer 350knots, 3g, as it gets you down quicker, also means you don’t need to apply any power at the end of the break turn, onto downwind, so one less variable in the turn.
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Indeed I think it depends where you are and there is a bit of leeway I think. And it might depend which service you are in. Air Force might be more strict than Navy from what I heard. Mover has a video here where he does an overhead ‘carrier’ break at 800 ft and he says that he will not mention speed, but it’s clear that he’s quite a bit faster than 300 kts.:
Around 20 minutes into the video.
There were also great stories on Tomcat Sunset from Hoser how they played with the overhead break at NAS Miramar. F-14’s frequently coming in at 500 kts. Often that was allowed, but sometimes they got a new admiral as base commander who was a lot more strict and they tried to stop it. So then they had stories how the tower used pencil marks to check the speed, making the pilots break earlier so the marks were useless. Or the admiral sitting next to the runway with radar detector, making pilots coming in from all kinds of different angles.
Of course, these were the 70’s/80’s. Things were a lot different then I suppose.F-16’s here seem to do 1500 ft around 300 to 350 kts although every now and then they do seem to go faster. But in real life they frequently seem to fly the break a bit sportier than what I see sim guys do in youtube videos. So it does seem they have a bit more leeway. But it probably depends on service and country and which airport you are.
The Navy seem to have a bit more leeway, especially around the boat when there’s nobody else around.
Perhaps it’s similar to what I once read from an F-14B pilot. With the new GE engines they weren’t allowed to do afterburner take offs. But somebody once asked on a forum if they could do afterburner take offs and his answer was: depends on who’s looking. Maybe that applies to the overhead break too.
I’d concur about Navy ops at or around the boat - not only are they not dealing with any civil restrictions, but they are also over water…so, if CAG clears you you can make your pass supersonic for all that’s worth…I once escorted a visiting Eagle driver to his jet for departure, at a base where the runways put departure over water, crossing the Pacific coast. As we approached the jet, I asked - “so…you gonna stand this thing on it’s tail and show these Tomcat jocks what a REAL jet can do?” He balked - “probably not, that sort of thing has a way of getting back to you”. At which point I asked how he was going home, and he said he was just leaving VFR…to which I answered - “so ask for a VFR departure and climb at your best angle - this is a Navy base, they don’t know your best angle is 90 degrees!” His answer - “whoa, yeah…and I WILL be over water…and if they clear me…” I left him with “have a good flight sir”, went to lunch, and returned to find a nest of jealous Tomcat drivers…
…OTOH - if you are operating even near a civil area (let alone within an ATA), you may also have noise abatement and/or additional public safety restrictions to deal with which limit your available speed by limiting your turn radius to being within the boundaries of a ground reference. I happen to live off the departure end of a Naval runway, and the course rules include that pilot’s have to make all pattern turns north of the main road that runs E/W - two blocks north of where I live during - all arrivals/departures. That sort of thing can place a limit on the usable airspace and also induce a maneuvering speed limit…which will of course also depend on type of aircraft.
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I’d concur about Navy ops at or around the boat - not only are they not dealing with any civil restrictions, but they are also over water…so, if CAG clears you you can make your pass supersonic for all that’s worth…I once escorted a visiting Eagle driver to his jet for departure, at a base where the runways put departure over water, crossing the Pacific coast. As we approached the jet, I asked - “so…you gonna stand this thing on it’s tail and show these Tomcat jocks what a REAL jet can do?” He balked - “probably not, that sort of thing has a way of getting back to you”. At which point I asked how he was going home, and he said he was just leaving VFR…to which I answered - “so ask for a VFR departure and climb at your best angle - this is a Navy base, they don’t know your best angle is 90 degrees!” His answer - “whoa, yeah…and I WILL be over water…and if they clear me…” I left him with “have a good flight sir”, went to lunch, and returned to find a nest of jealous Tomcat drivers…
…OTOH - if you are operating even near a civil area (let alone within an ATA), you may also have noise abatement and/or additional public safety restrictions to deal with which limit your available speed by limiting your turn radius to being within the boundaries of a ground reference. I happen to live off the departure end of a Naval runway, and the course rules include that pilot’s have to make all pattern turns north of the main road that runs E/W - two blocks north of where I live during - all arrivals/departures. That sort of thing can place a limit on the usable airspace and also induce a maneuvering speed limit…which will of course also depend on type of aircraft.
Hehe, cool story. Similar story came from Hoser at Nellis Air Force base. Nellis was very strict on the 300 kts, so to liven things up Hoser plugged in the afterburner during the break. when asked on the ground why he did that, he said the F-14A wouldn’t stay airborne entering the break at 300 kts if he didn’t use the afterburner.
of course Hoser also did an 80 degree break with his S-2 firebomber. When asked why he did an 80 degree break his reply was: at 90 degrees the plane will not stay airborne.And to counter the Eagle story ;). This was a cool story from Dale Snodgrass:
"_I was an Ensign ( the lowest commissioned officer rank) and had just completed carrier qualification in the Tomcat…day and night. Being the first Ensign and the only one direct out of flight school to do that, I was rewarded with the privilege of picking up a brand new F-14 from the Grumman factory in Long Island, NY. My father was a VP with Grumman Flight Test and a long time test pilot. Being given the honor to pick up a pristine, brand new, world-beating fighter with my father delivering it to me was maybe the proudest and most cherished experience of my life…I don’t think I was ever more proud of him or he of me.But that’s just the prelude…with me was a RIO (Radar Intercept Officer) who was also an Ensign. Grumman seized the publicity opportunity and while my father relished the moment, I focused on the flight back to NAS Miramar in San Diego. Not the weather nor the enroute support…but a fuel stop at Luke AFB outside Phoenix. It was during the ’73/’74 fuel crisis and Luke had refused transient fuel stops for over a year and a half. Literally days before my flight to Miramar, they had lifted the restriction. Prior to my touchdown, no F-14 had ever landed at Luke. I knew they were to receive the USAF’s first operational F-15 the day after our stop……the pot was too sweet to resist!
It was a short leg from Luke to Miramar so I knew I could request a unrestricted climb in full afterburner out of there…thus I timed my arrival for a late afternoon arrival and dusk take off (best light to see the 75 foot burner plume). The F-14 vs F-15 controversy was at its pinnacle, so the fuel stop was mandatory in my young parochial Navy Fighter Pilot eyes.
The real humor lies in how the USAF received me. As I taxied in I was directed to a parking spot directly in front of Base Operations normally reserved for Generals / High Ranking Officials. As we shut down the engines, a USAF sedan drove up and a Brigadier General popped out to meet us. I told my RIO to put on his cover (hat with our rank insignia) on as the canopy came up. Climbing down from the cockpit, I gave the General a proper salute but the expression on his face when he saw not one, but TWO Ensigns flying a brand new kick ass fighter that was head to head with the F-15…which no less than a Major had flown…was priceless. Never was I more proud to be a Naval Aviator!!!_"
RIP both Hoser and Snort!
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Not THAT was a good story!
While I was still at that same base - summer of 1986 or '87, I think - the DoD broke out a Tomcat that had been flagged and held at Grumman since the mid 70’s - because it was supposed to be an Iranian F-14 - and delivered it to the USN Test community. They sent it to us, still in Iranian camo - and with that “brand new Tomcat smell” still intact. I think it had 12 hours on it when it landed, and ALL of the jocks wanted a turn flying it. Grumman sent a crew out to paint and “Navalize” it…which didn’t actually take as long as I might have thought.
It was sure pretty - brand, spankin’ new in the late 80’s! I’m sure they’ve since de-mil’d it…just like all the rest of 'em…
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Yeah, most of them have been scrapped. it’s too bad that most of them ended up that way. Such an awesome jet.
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I haven’t seen a Tomcat on the wing in a LOOOOONG time. They even did some of the shooting for Top Gun 2 in my area and they didn’t have one in hand either - the one in the trailer looks DCS, to me. I think they’ve scrapped all of them…that aren’t in museums.
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The one in Top Gun 2 is cgi. There are no flying F-14’s, outside of Iran. Dale Snodgrass wanted a few flying F-14’s for airshows, but that was denied. I think there are a few still at Amarc, but the rest are scrapped or in a museum. Fortunately I was lucky enough to get to see them fly a few times at Oceana.
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Used to see them fly all the time, being that I work around Naval Aviation for a career. We had about dozen around at one time, then that dwindled to six, then then to three, then none.
I got to go watch them fire a 30mm round through the belly of one once - with engines running - to test a set of new self sealing fuel tanks. They worked…but the jets all disappeared not long after that test.
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https://theaviationist.com/2015/03/01/iriaf-f-14s-overhauled/
I read that Iran plans to keep them active through 2030 also in same article that they carry AIM54A???
Really? or is this just hot air, because I thought USA scrapped the Pheonix before handing it to Iran… -
I think the AIM-54 is still around, but limited to ones that are still on the shelves - which may really be even less than thought, because rocket motors expire over time…and there certainly aren’t any spares available for Tomcats - which was one of the reasons all of the remaining ones were outright scrapped. This can only leave me to wonder just how many of any remaining ones on their landing gear are actually flght-worthy. Intention is one thing, actuality is another.
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Meet the Fakour……clue might be in the name of course.
_Iran’s copy of US-made Phoenix air-to-air missile goes into production
https://defence-blog.com/irans-copy-us-made-fenix-air-air-missile-goes-production/_
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Very interesting…I do also recall that the only other country to be actually licensed to produce AIM-54 was Japan. A long time ago…
Pretty sure the US doesn’t make them anymore, as there is no other platform that can carry/employ them.
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Correct, Phoenix was retired in 2004 or 5, even before the F-14 itself was retired in 06.
Sadly most Tomcats were scrapped. It does show how capable the plane was when they go through so much trouble preventing Iran from getting parts.
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My cousin is a retired Tomcat Maintainer…I also know how hard is is to keep a Tomcat flying at full strength. Even more so when you can’t get parts - and for this set of systems, there are a LOT of parts required. So I’m very skeptical about the actual state of any of them left out there in the world.
I also get the impression from Tomcat drivers I’ve known that the F-14 is a lot of sheer work to fly. So if you aren’t practicing hard, and on your game…