Hit by SAMs without RWR warning
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Haven’t had much chances to try 4.37 thoroughly. But in both of my 2 flights, I and my friends were mostly shot down by SAMs like SA-5 and SA-2 without RWR warnings.
Did we miss something?
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@TUAF-Ripper do you have some more info to work on? TE or campaign? Your loadout, which squadron, package, airfield, mission type description of event, possible a savegame or TE in which it happened.
And can you reproduce?
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They were all TE, CM Block 50. I have an ACMI record of my last flight but I don’t know whether it is usefull or not.
I get shot at 08:43.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/cs00nfrjehjigdd/2023-01-18_19-46-39.zip.acmi?dl=0
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@TUAF-Ripper thanks, could you share the TE you flew? And were you the server, one of your buddies or a dedicated server?
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@TUAF-Ripper
If radar is outside RWR coverage you wont have any detection (RWR is not a bubble).But hard to tell you exactly. Must see the ACMI and investigate more.
Repro case is indeed required. -
@TUAF-Ripper - if they are IR or optically targeted SAMs you will not get an RWR indication.
Same for a MANPAD - which there should be more of, in “reality”.
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@TUAF-Ripper Did you see/hear the SA-5 on the RWR at all, ever? Or just not the missile(s) incoming?
Questions/observations…
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Over 50nm away from the SA-5. Could there be a bubble issue? I think there’s a special-case bubble radius for SA-5 but I don’t remember what that limit is.
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Traveling about 90 degree aspect from the SA-5 site … could be RWR blind-spot.
But it looks like your wingman drops a ton of chaff and goes defensive, right about the time you are hit… did he get a RWR warning – or did you call out on the radio before ejecting?
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@airtex2019
Yes, I saw SA-5 on the RWR many times and got the missile warnings. But the missile hit me didn’t give me any warning.No, he went defensive after my call.
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@Dee-Jay
Yeah, I know. But it happened too many times to too many people. Statistically hard. -
@TUAF-Ripper wait … SA-5 is a SARH missile right? kinda like an old-school analog S-300? not sure you’ll ever see an ‘M’ on the RWR…
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@TUAF-Ripper general statements are pretty difficult to debug. Your acmi was a nice start, but please share some more info, the TE/campaign save file, were you client or host etc.
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@Tumbler31
Just to add my 2 kopeyke to gulash. , for what @TUAF-Ripper is saying…
Yes I was hit few times - 2-3 - with SA-6 w/o TWP-MISSILE alert … last time it sounded alert 0.5 - 1 sec before hit. - just bam… like IR.- I was maneuvering, v-low , extending from previous evasion - so wasn’t exactly in level flight - beaming slightly 4-5h - ECM - using terrain, small hill - that was the broad picture )
What @Dee-Jay says makes sense, about RWR coverage, if that was improved somehow.
But if I were suspicious, I would check terrain and radar again, maybe guidance works but RWR can’t see it - it is a faaaaar guess. - not even speculating.
TE is my “qual day” , CAS/JTAC vs SA-6 and HQ(sa-15) battalions. - so it seems not related to specific case, but all around - just very rare… had more then 20-30 flights.
But, I know what I saw, just to prove it , with evidence
Cheers
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If you’re jamming, I think some of these SAMs can HOJ, so in that case they won’t be active, but homing in on you.
<M> is only for active seeker from the missile, so if it is optically guiding, or homing, then there won’t be an <M>.
I rarely fly with a pod as I find it is too much of a missile magnet. When I do, I use it sparingly (just to try and get the launching system to lose lock).
Does the SA-10 also have a special bubble? I find it a joke of a system (at least in 4.36). Real-world is quite different.
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@airtex2019 In real life, the SA-5 never gives you a lock or launch warning.
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@Tiger-0
That stands, but I was on 4/6th - 5/6th of range circle, ecm should kinda do its magic,… well, radar already burnthrough if launched… eh.HOJ for stright flush/flat face - I don’t know…, not impossible.
(I do remember - flashing the jammer )
SA-6 will never <M>/Optical backup would also make sense. That I agree.
Don’t know hows that coded tho.
There was a small ‘window’ between 2 hills - it could explain rwr hit/alert just before missile hit,… - it was already in air , just wasn’t aware - now:- it could lost lock after launch, terrain/ecm - then regain in that small spot (hoj?) - window between two hills, but trajectory with me beaming … OR
- it lost lock and went to optical and then regained lock on that spot (hoj?) - 1sec - hit …
- RWR did NOT do its magic
It is all very all very broad for something that complex - without more insight we can only speculate - but now with more of what not to do.
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I checked the threat guide… SA-6 is Command guided for launch then switches to SAHR, with lead pursuit final guidance. It has HOJ capability, so if it launched while you were jamming, it probably never went active until it lost you behind the mountain, triggering SAHR, and then the launch warning when you appeared in the gap right before it hit you.
Launch Warning itself is triggered by the RWR detecting SAM FCR carrier-wave activation. In other words, it is a pretty dumb system and assumes if it detects a fire control RADAR it assumes it fired at you.
IIRC it is possible in the sim to get false launch warning if you’re flying in the line of the FCR at the time it goes active. Pretty neat.
I’m assuming you were very low, so the missile is coming down on top of you. In this case, the missile itself could very well be in your RWR blind-spot. If you’re terrain masking, kill your jammer on your way down, then terrain mask for as long as you think the missile is on you. I have some pretty cool screenshots from dancing with SAMs.
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@Tiger-0 said in Hit by SAMs without RWR warning:
I’m assuming you were very low, so the missile is coming down on top of you. In this case, the missile itself could very well be in your RWR blind-spot. If you’re terrain masking, kill your jammer on your way down, then terrain mask for as long as you think the missile is on you.
Ha, overlooked this - but very very possible. It is a tricky shot but it fits.
Cheers
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