much, much more difficult with basket then boom AA refueling
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@airtex2019 - No. As far as I’m aware the only time the Hornet changes gains is with gear and flaps down - landing config.
I knew a Hornet driver that once told me that when he plugged he ran his seat full down…then back to flying position once he was off the basket. Only pilot I ever heard that from, and I never got that one, myself…but everybody has their own tricks.
…he was former USAF, and did a Navy transition…so he had two sets of wings. And tricks.
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@airtex2019 said in much, much more difficult with basket then boom AA refueling:
@KaneXu T16000M does have a pretty significant hardware deadzone.
My ancient T16000M died sometime last year so I can’t help test or tune this, but it might be worthwhile to try this – add these lines into your
falcon bms user.cfg
to “smooth out” the harsh transition around the deadzone.This will make it more of a gradual S-curve, around the center. May take some trial and error to tune this to balance fine-control with quick response when you need it.
set g_nAxisExp_AXIS_PITCH 3 set g_nAxisSat_AXIS_PITCH 3 set g_nAxisExp_AXIS_ROLL 3 set g_nAxisSat_AXIS_ROLL 3
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The only way to master the basket is to not look at it.
The basket is a small spot in the air. It’s like you are chasing a bird.Try to fly a precise formation with the Tanker and as you approach try to look for the basket with your surround vision.
As for the hornet you have to get used to it and apply inputs to eliminate those pitch up and down movements.
Take a look here.
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@airtex2019 thanks for your setting parameters, but I’m thinking to upgrade my HOTAS these days. Not because the AA refuling issue, but T16000M don’t have enough buttons/povs, and the mini stick on my TWCS which controls SOI is drifting, which really annoies me. These two issues didn’t borther me when I was flying civil aircrafts, but now I’m in F-16, it matters. I’m considering the Warthorg, but I see people saying it has a strong centering force, and that’ll make tiny movments even harder, is it?
@Ironman3 thanks for the vid. You really mastered the jet’s pitch! Since I’m thinking a new HOTAS, may I ask what device you’re flying? Thanks.
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@Ironman3 - in RL, you have to look at it, and measure your closing rate…because you can set up a standing wave/whip in the hose that will rip the probe out of the side of your aircraft, or shear the basket off the end of the hose, if you hit it too hard or the wrong way.
Had this happen to a jet on my line once…fortunately he had enough gas to make it home, but what was left of the nose end of the jet wasn’t pretty.
So once you get close to contact, you actually need to fly form on the basket. AND watch the hose!
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@KaneXu
I have a Logitech x52 13 years now. Not the perfect stick for flying precisely but if you are used to it is ok.@Stevie
Of course you have to look at it especially at the end of the approach, BUT in real life you have an extra advantage of the prospective and the feeling that you are actually flying in 3 dimensions. You may look at the basket but you can feel if you are steady enough. Think it like driving a car in real life and in a video game. You can drive more precisely in real life than in video game. At least it is more easy to do it.In falcon in order to do that you need to get that feeling only by comparing a larger image like the Tanker. Of course you see the basket too but you are trying to be steady regarding the Tanker. At the end phase where the basket is large enough you can point at it and transit your eyes to it.
Of course you can master the thing only by looking through basket but this is way more difficult but not impossible.
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@Ferde said in much, much more difficult with basket then boom AA refueling:
@VIPER-0 said in much, much more difficult with basket then boom AA refueling:
I fly with a keyboard and I can do it. You can too, I know so.
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@KaneXu the other factor in the equation is input-loop-latency… this can cause PIO even in real fly-by-wire jets.
not much we can control but (a) make sure your monitor or tv is in whatever low-latency or aka “game-mode” it has available
also (b) flying with v-sync on is probably (?) bad for latency… I’ve been working on tool to quantify the input-to-render latency, will post it sometime in the next few days
but in meantime, try turning v-sync off, to see if you notice a difference
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@VIPER-0 Impressive. Congrats!
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@Tomcattwo said in much, much more difficult with basket then boom AA refueling:
(…)
I find the latest F-18 flight model (in both KTO and OMFKTO) to be more “pitchy”. Any slight throttle increase and the nose pitches up considerably. (…)Have you tried to “walk the throttle” , I mean moving one throttle at time? So for example to increase speed move left, if you want to further increase speed, then right etc…
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@airtex2019 thanks for the tip. But if I can fly F-16 without the pitch issue but in F-18, then we can exclude the other factors like the latency you mentioned, right? I’m setting the monitor with 144hz and thanks to BMS using old graphic engine, in morden PC I can also get over 100fps… it’s so smooth I don’t even care about the performance
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@Roger
Using a Cougar throttle. It’s not split.
Thanks for the advice.
Regards,
TC2 -
I am pretty accustomed to AAR in the F-16. Just tried the AAR TE in the Hornet. Got assigned to the right basket. A couple of questions if anyone would please share experiences:
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Speed:
When refueling the F-16, 300 kts is held almost with no variation. What speed does the tanker assume when refueling Hornets? It did not seem steady. Sometimes I was falling behind at 270 kts, sometimes I was overtaking with 275. -
Sight picture for moving into contact:
When refueling the F-16, as a rule of thumb to approach contact, put the gun cross on the boom tip. Do any similar “rules” apply for the Hornet ?
Cheers,
JayB -
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@Ironman3 - this comes up a LOT when I take “gamers” and non-pilot Engineers into the Trainer (just finished a session today…) - everyone says they can’t perform because they can’t perceive depth perception…even in a full dome.
I’ve been at this for about 8 years now, and I’ve somehow developed some perceptual “tricks” to get around this feeling/perception…I can even estimate distances. I don’t really have a straight forward way to “teach” how I do it, but it’s something I’ve always just assumed that people that operate well on a 2D screen also know how to do - the best I can say is that “it’s not just what you see, it’s how you see”. This way you can generate the feeling in much the way you maintain a mental image of the 3D tactical situation.
I demo’d this to a bunch of students once by giving them a bunch of those 2D staring pictures that pop into a 3D image if/when you stare at them long enough…the ones that were able to get those also ended up doing better in the Trainer…and others that I told to think about machine vision and how that works were able to use that advise.
Again, I can’t really say or explain just how or why this works…some psychologist or Human Factors guy probably could.
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@Stevie So curious what you say. I discovered myself tilting my head a bit to the left when refueling. Probably I get better distance perception doing so.
Also, I had to actively teach myself it’s my plane that moves and not the tanker. “Intuitively” my brain processed me being still and the world moving around me. Once I taught myself that I got much better. -
@Ferde - that actually makes a lot of sense!
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@jayb said in much, much more difficult with basket then boom AA refueling:
I am pretty accustomed to AAR in the F-16. Just tried the AAR TE in the Hornet. Got assigned to the right basket. A couple of questions if anyone would please share experiences:
- Speed:
When refueling the F-16, 300 kts is held almost with no variation. What speed does the tanker assume when refueling Hornets? It did not seem steady. Sometimes I was falling behind at 270 kts, sometimes I was overtaking with 275.
The speed seems to vary by which tanker you approach in the F-18 Hornet. The propeller driven KC-130 does around 280, while the KC-135 runs at 310. Is that as intended ?
- Speed:
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@jayb
The refuel speed is set in the tanker’s .dat file in the air-air refuel section (the element is called “refuelSpeed”) …\sim\acdata folder.
Regards,
Tomcattwo
(VoiceClone) -
@jayb - Yes - this is true, and determined by the controllability of the tanker. The KC-130 is THE single most hated tanker among Hornet drivers:
- it’s slow.
- you have to be slow.
- you are slow, and getting heavier as you take on fuel.
- this NOT a good situation to be in…