much, much more difficult with basket then boom AA refueling
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I feel it much, much more difficult on AA refueling with basket(F-18) than with boom(F-16).
I know with boom, there’s a man in tanker controling it and he takes the majority of the precise work comparing a basket, I have to take these most difficulties on my own.
However, I think the problem is that I can’t fly the F-18 as comfortable as flying F-16. Is it because F-16 is fly-by-wire? If I left my stick in center the computer in F-16 holds the jet steady?
But in F-18, I feel the pitch very hard to hold steady. I often make the nose up/down in huge wave movement but neven happened in F-16. Even I get the basket contacted, I still can’t hold steadyIs it just me?
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@KaneXu said in much, much more difficult with basket then boom AA refueling:
I feel it much, much more difficult on AA refueling with basket(F-18) than with boom(F-16).
I know with boom, there’s a man in tanker controling it and he takes the majority of the precise work comparing a basket, I have to take these most difficulties on my own.
However, I think the problem is that I can’t fly the F-18 as comfortable as flying F-16. Is it because F-16 is fly-by-wire? If I left my stick in center the computer in F-16 holds the jet steady?
But in F-18, I feel the pitch very hard to hold steady. I often make the nose up/down in huge wave movement but neven happened in F-16. Even I get the basket contacted, I still can’t hold steadyIs it just me?
practice is the answer
i advise you to start with Mirage2000 , it’s less pitchy
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Or the you could try the F-16D-52+ RSAF that has the probe come out of the right CFT. I love to drogue refuel with this and so happy that the BMS team added it even though it was only a proposed feature. Although admittedly, getting the right sight picture is a bit of a challenge because the probe is behind your right shoulder. I find I put the top corner of the HUD frame on the refueling pod for the sight picture for the probe stab. The M2000 as Mav-JP recommends might be a better option starting out, even though you shouldn’t be focused on the probe driving into the drogue (not enough visual feedback on positioning then), having it in your visual field does help some.
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@KaneXu said in much, much more difficult with basket then boom AA refueling:
I feel it much, much more difficult on AA refueling with basket(F-18) than with boom(F-16).
I know with boom, there’s a man in tanker controling it and he takes the majority of the precise work comparing a basket, I have to take these most difficulties on my own.
However, I think the problem is that I can’t fly the F-18 as comfortable as flying F-16. Is it because F-16 is fly-by-wire? If I left my stick in center the computer in F-16 holds the jet steady?
But in F-18, I feel the pitch very hard to hold steady. I often make the nose up/down in huge wave movement but neven happened in F-16. Even I get the basket contacted, I still can’t hold steadyIs it just me?
I fly with a keyboard and I can do it. You can too, I know so.
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@Fish44 said in much, much more difficult with basket then boom AA refueling:
I fly with a keyboard …
How do you manage the speed.?
with experience
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@KaneXu VR, TrackIR, or mouselook?
I think a large part of the AAR experience is depth-perception… which you get by moving your head around a bit (VR and TIR) but is hard to get with mouselook.
Also what is your joystick … if there’s any way to reduce or eliminate hardware deadzone, do it. (Also set deadzone=none in BMS setup screen. Remember you can use [alt+C][J] key sequence to zero out any drift, while in flight.)
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I think just the opposite - far easier to use a basket, because I can SEE the basket…
…OTOH, I certainly wouldn’t (and don’t) trust the flight model for the BMS Hornet because it’s not the chief focus of BMS, and in RL is far more complex in it’s control laws than a Viper - in fact, I’ve only ever seen two Hornet flight models outside of the Fleet Trainer that I have any respect for - 1) MSFS - because I know that MCAIR had a hand in helping MS with it; and 2) the old Graphsim F/A-18 - which while having a really nice flight model, had a really lousy engine model - especially when single engine.
But that doesn’t mean that things can’t get better, IF anyone is dedicated/interested in making them better…and yes - practice always helps.
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+1 @Stevie .
I find the latest F-18 flight model (in both KTO and OMFKTO) to be more “pitchy”. Any slight throttle increase and the nose pitches up considerably. Turns also seem to cause the nose to want to pitch up. I’ve tried adjusting my joysticks (both a spring-loaded Cougar and a VFS-WE “stiff-stick” Cougar) and the F-18 pitch control just seems off. I’ve set the curves every which way, with and without deadzones, and to me it still feels too pitch-sensitive.
Yeah, I know, “just git good”. But to me the flight model for the F-18 just feels off in pitch.
My 2 cents.
Regards,
Tomcattwo
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@VIPER-0 said in much, much more difficult with basket then boom AA refueling:
I fly with a keyboard and I can do it. You can too, I know so.
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@Ferde said in much, much more difficult with basket then boom AA refueling:
@VIPER-0 said in much, much more difficult with basket then boom AA refueling:
I fly with a keyboard and I can do it. You can too, I know so.
Actually, in my particular case, flying with a keyboard has only one purpose.
As I have previously said in another post, I am the proud owner of an X-52pro and an X-56Rhino. The purpose of flying with a keyboard is that as the administrator and staff of ACV CUBA I am in charge of the training process of new pilots and of maintaining the proficiency of the old ones. Mainly the new ones can present themselves with a flight task that they cannot fulfill and they always tell us (it’s because I fly with a keyboard, you have a joystick) and that’s when I say, hold my beer baby and I’ll show you how it can be done, the limit It’s how you train and how much you train, it doesn’t matter if you fly with a broomstick or with a HOTAS WARTHOG, it’s not the machine, it’s the man who flies it.
So practice practice and practice.
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@VIPER-0 Cool!!!
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Thanks @Mav-jp @Snake122 , I’ll try these models.
@airtex2019 said in much, much more difficult with basket then boom AA refueling:
@KaneXu VR, TrackIR, or mouselook?
I think a large part of the AAR experience is depth-perception… which you get by moving your head around a bit (VR and TIR) but is hard to get with mouselook.
Also what is your joystick … if there’s any way to reduce or eliminate hardware deadzone, do it. (Also set deadzone=none in BMS setup screen. Remember you can use [alt+C][J] key sequence to zero out any drift, while in flight.)
I have VR & openTrack. And tried with/without them. But as I said in the post, the problem isn’t distance/position preception, it’s too “pitchy”, I can’t hold the aircraft as I wanted. The joystick I used is thrustmaster T16000M, I don’t have any problem flying F-16, and I’m curious that is it because F-16 is flying by computer but F-18 not (or is it?)?
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@KaneXu T16000M does have a pretty significant hardware deadzone.
As for the jets… they are both fly by wire. I believe the F-16 applies reduced-gains when you have the fuel door open. (Someone correct me if I’m wrong.)
Does F-18 do the same?
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@airtex2019 - No. As far as I’m aware the only time the Hornet changes gains is with gear and flaps down - landing config.
I knew a Hornet driver that once told me that when he plugged he ran his seat full down…then back to flying position once he was off the basket. Only pilot I ever heard that from, and I never got that one, myself…but everybody has their own tricks.
…he was former USAF, and did a Navy transition…so he had two sets of wings. And tricks.
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@airtex2019 said in much, much more difficult with basket then boom AA refueling:
@KaneXu T16000M does have a pretty significant hardware deadzone.
My ancient T16000M died sometime last year so I can’t help test or tune this, but it might be worthwhile to try this – add these lines into your
falcon bms user.cfg
to “smooth out” the harsh transition around the deadzone.This will make it more of a gradual S-curve, around the center. May take some trial and error to tune this to balance fine-control with quick response when you need it.
set g_nAxisExp_AXIS_PITCH 3 set g_nAxisSat_AXIS_PITCH 3 set g_nAxisExp_AXIS_ROLL 3 set g_nAxisSat_AXIS_ROLL 3
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The only way to master the basket is to not look at it.
The basket is a small spot in the air. It’s like you are chasing a bird.Try to fly a precise formation with the Tanker and as you approach try to look for the basket with your surround vision.
As for the hornet you have to get used to it and apply inputs to eliminate those pitch up and down movements.
Take a look here.
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@airtex2019 thanks for your setting parameters, but I’m thinking to upgrade my HOTAS these days. Not because the AA refuling issue, but T16000M don’t have enough buttons/povs, and the mini stick on my TWCS which controls SOI is drifting, which really annoies me. These two issues didn’t borther me when I was flying civil aircrafts, but now I’m in F-16, it matters. I’m considering the Warthorg, but I see people saying it has a strong centering force, and that’ll make tiny movments even harder, is it?
@Ironman3 thanks for the vid. You really mastered the jet’s pitch! Since I’m thinking a new HOTAS, may I ask what device you’re flying? Thanks.
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@Ironman3 - in RL, you have to look at it, and measure your closing rate…because you can set up a standing wave/whip in the hose that will rip the probe out of the side of your aircraft, or shear the basket off the end of the hose, if you hit it too hard or the wrong way.
Had this happen to a jet on my line once…fortunately he had enough gas to make it home, but what was left of the nose end of the jet wasn’t pretty.
So once you get close to contact, you actually need to fly form on the basket. AND watch the hose!