much, much more difficult with basket then boom AA refueling
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@Stevie So curious what you say. I discovered myself tilting my head a bit to the left when refueling. Probably I get better distance perception doing so.
Also, I had to actively teach myself it’s my plane that moves and not the tanker. “Intuitively” my brain processed me being still and the world moving around me. Once I taught myself that I got much better. -
@Ferde - that actually makes a lot of sense!
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@jayb said in much, much more difficult with basket then boom AA refueling:
I am pretty accustomed to AAR in the F-16. Just tried the AAR TE in the Hornet. Got assigned to the right basket. A couple of questions if anyone would please share experiences:
- Speed:
When refueling the F-16, 300 kts is held almost with no variation. What speed does the tanker assume when refueling Hornets? It did not seem steady. Sometimes I was falling behind at 270 kts, sometimes I was overtaking with 275.
The speed seems to vary by which tanker you approach in the F-18 Hornet. The propeller driven KC-130 does around 280, while the KC-135 runs at 310. Is that as intended ?
- Speed:
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@jayb
The refuel speed is set in the tanker’s .dat file in the air-air refuel section (the element is called “refuelSpeed”) …\sim\acdata folder.
Regards,
Tomcattwo
(VoiceClone) -
@jayb - Yes - this is true, and determined by the controllability of the tanker. The KC-130 is THE single most hated tanker among Hornet drivers:
- it’s slow.
- you have to be slow.
- you are slow, and getting heavier as you take on fuel.
- this NOT a good situation to be in…
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@Stevie said in much, much more difficult with basket then boom AA refueling:
@jayb - Yes - this is true, and determined by the controllability of the tanker. The KC-130 is THE single most hated tanker among Hornet drivers:
- it’s slow.
- you have to be slow.
- you are slow, and getting heavier as you take on fuel.
- this NOT a good situation to be in…
Nice with some RL insights, thanks. Just keeping formation with the KC-130 was harder than the others, let alone try to catch the basket. Also, and I could be imagining this, in BMS the propellers give some more turbulence than the KC-135 at the very spot you need to be in to catch the basket
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@jayb - yes, I would imagine the props don’t help anything either…I do know that one of the considerations when spec’ing an aircraft as a tanker is an evaluation of the downwash/wake behind the tanker on flying qualities of the aircraft it is meant to refuel.
…and I forgot to mention a fifth reason Hornet drivers don’t like KC-130s - they tend to operate at lower altitudes…combine this with reasons 1-4 and yeah…you get nervous!
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@Tomcattwo said in much, much more difficult with basket then boom AA refueling:
@jayb
The refuel speed is set in the tanker’s .dat file in the air-air refuel section (the element is called “refuelSpeed”) …\sim\acdata folder.
Regards,
Tomcattwo
(VoiceClone)Hm, this is interesting and a bit confusing. Even jets have refuelSpeed, eg. the F-1652 has 300 kts, the F-18C has 310 kts. And the KC135 has 280.
refuelSpeed might mean that if the KC135 itself does AAR, it requires the tanker to do 280. Not that it will refuel any “customers” at 280, because the F-16 is refueled at 300 kts by the KC135? If so, the Hornet would prefer 310 but in the AAR TE the KC130 is unable to fly that fast because it being a slow aircraft. Will do some more tests …
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@jayb - in all the years I’ve been operating Hornets, I’ve never heard mention of a “refuel speed”. I know that different tankers have different operating speeds and/or may even vary them depending on Type of the Receiver, but what I hear pilots talk about mostly is closure rate on the basket before contact…once plugged, I don’t think they actually look at airspeed unless they have JHMCS or a WSO to monitor it. You don’t take your eyes off the basket, from what I hear.
I have an E/F PCL handy, and for Super Hornet AAR the only speed restriction is for the Tanker not to attempt or start refueling below 220 knots, and this make sense to me given that the flap speed for the Receiver (Hornet) is 250 knots. And to be honest, I think this is for a Super Hornet flying 5 wet as a Tanker - i.e.; with a Buddy Store.
There is no speed Restriction in the PCL for the Receiver…which is likely why I’ve never heard of such.
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@jayb I think you are correct but I will be anxious to see what your testing shows.
R/
TC2 -
@Stevie - Seems I’m more familiar with the big book than the PCL…I did manage to find some further speed limits for the Hornet re: the fuel probe…300 knots for open/close (probe in motion); 400 knots max when extended.
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Ok, from tests it seems that the refuelSpeed is the speed that the tanker will (try to) assume to accommodate the jet taking fuel. I modified the AAR training TE to put a Hornet flight in the tanker pattern with some F-16s. While the F-16s were refueling at 300 kts exactly, when it came time for my F-18C flight to refuel, the tanker increased its speed to 310.
There was a couple of issues/observations with the refueling. First, it seems random which basket you are handed. Right, center or left basket. Also, the AI wingmen will not start refueling (plug into the basket) in a turn, even though that is no issue for F-16 AI wingmen. Not that I can blame them, haha. Finally, you never see refueling of two Hornets simultaneously, like one on the left and one on the right basket. One might think that would be an efficient way to serve a long line of waiting jets. Dunno if that is real world doctrine
I can recommend this video which details real-life basket refueling the F-14 and how to make small adjustments (timestamped):
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Regarding the issue of the inability for the AI to get contact while turning is normal IAW devs.
Once they contact in level flight the can maintain position if the Tanker turns.
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@jayb
Thanks for that info and video. Very informative and useful.
Regards,
TC2 -
In what capacity are you operating Hornets? You post implies you’re not a pilot or a WSO? Sim instructor, some kind of engineer?
In other posts you implied you flew…but I never recall what or when… what is/was your flying career?
@Stevie said in much, much more difficult with basket then boom AA refueling:
@jayb - in all the years I’ve been operating Hornets, I’ve never heard mention of a “refuel speed”. I know that different tankers have different operating speeds and/or may even vary them depending on Type of the Receiver, but what I hear pilots talk about mostly is closure rate on the basket before contact…once plugged, I don’t think they actually look at airspeed unless they have JHMCS or a WSO to monitor it. You don’t take your eyes off the basket, from what I hear.
I have an E/F PCL handy, and for Super Hornet AAR the only speed restriction is for the Tanker not to attempt or start refueling below 220 knots, and this make sense to me given that the flap speed for the Receiver (Hornet) is 250 knots. And to be honest, I think this is for a Super Hornet flying 5 wet as a Tanker - i.e.; with a Buddy Store.
There is no speed Restriction in the PCL for the Receiver…which is likely why I’ve never heard of such.
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One more difference I noted between refueling F-16s and Hornets: The tanker drops altitude to around 19500 ft for Hornets, while F-16s are served at approx 21500 ft. So if you’re in a Hornet behind F-16s, be prepared for the altitude change (and vice versa). So different speeds and different altitudes
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@mirv - I’ve been a Hornet Series Flight Test Engineer for 30+ years. I’ve also had the experience of flying a RL Super Hornet from the back seat for 1.7 hours. I’ve been working Supers as long as there have BEEN Supers…very easy airplane to fly, really - even from the back seat.
I fly the Trainer now regularly - and my boss wants me to fly more. I started building a Viper pit around BMS some 8 years ago, that got noticed at work, and I got invited for a Trainer “tour” that sort of turned into a “job interview” once they saw I could not only fly but also operate the systems (I’m a Private Pilot, and sport jumper)…I can also fight, and land on the CV consistently. One of the coolest things about the Trainer is that no two sessions ever go the same way…just like RL. Including gripes on the jet.
I’ve been instructing other Engineers in the Trainer for about 8 years now (in fact, I have to fly tomorrow). My biggest complaint - getting people to understand that the Trainer is NOT a “video game”…and that conversely, video games can be good Training with the appropriate mindset (I was actually introduced to Falcon at work, during the late 80s). Some take to it immediately, some need “encouragement”.
So…these days I “fly” the Trainer 2-4 hours a week. I have some 500 hours in it over the last 8 years, by my guess - plus hours in a number of other Types, as well as supporting live Flight Test Missions with real airplanes.
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@Stevie said in much, much more difficult with basket then boom AA refueling:
@mirv - I’ve been a Hornet Series Flight Test Engineer for 30+ years. I’ve also had the experience of flying a RL Super Hornet from the back seat for 1.7 hours. I’ve been working Supers as long as there have BEEN Supers…very easy airplane to fly, really - even from the back seat.
I fly the Trainer now regularly - and my boss wants me to fly more. I started building a Viper pit around BMS some 8 years ago, that got noticed at work, and I got invited for a Trainer “tour” that sort of turned into a “job interview” once they saw I could not only fly but also operate the systems (I’m a Private Pilot, and sport jumper)…I can also fight, and land on the CV consistently. One of the coolest things about the Trainer is that no two sessions ever go the same way…just like RL. Including gripes on the jet.
I’ve been instructing other Engineers in the Trainer for about 8 years now (in fact, I have to fly tomorrow). My biggest complaint - getting people to understand that the Trainer is NOT a “video game”…and that conversely, video games can be good Training with the appropriate mindset (I was actually introduced to Falcon at work, during the late 80s). Some take to it immediately, some need “encouragement”.
So…these days I “fly” the Trainer 2-4 hours a week. I have some 500 hours in it over the last 8 years, by my guess - plus hours in a number of other Types, as well as supporting live Flight Test Missions with real airplanes.
Jokes aside, it’s that your preparation and experience in aeronautics is noticeable, one only has to read and interpret the way you pose and approach a situation or a debate. When I read it it’s like it’s me, more experienced, older and SEXY.
regards @Stevie
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That’s pretty awesome! if one didn’t or couldn’t fly, a career where you’re “toying with” and flying the real sim of your favorite (or one of your favorite) aircraft would be the next best thing for sure.
Thank you for sharing. Sometimes I have to remind myself “I can’t believe they pay me to do this…”
Sim training can be really good… even if it’s not an exact replication of something, it can teach the motor skills needed for the real thing. And of course the endless emergency procedures that prepares you for when/if it happens for real.
@Stevie said in much, much more difficult with basket then boom AA refueling:
@mirv - I’ve been a Hornet Series Flight Test Engineer for 30+ years. I’ve also had the experience of flying a RL Super Hornet from the back seat for 1.7 hours. I’ve been working Supers as long as there have BEEN Supers…very easy airplane to fly, really - even from the back seat.
I fly the Trainer now regularly - and my boss wants me to fly more. I started building a Viper pit around BMS some 8 years ago, that got noticed at work, and I got invited for a Trainer “tour” that sort of turned into a “job interview” once they saw I could not only fly but also operate the systems (I’m a Private Pilot, and sport jumper)…I can also fight, and land on the CV consistently. One of the coolest things about the Trainer is that no two sessions ever go the same way…just like RL. Including gripes on the jet.
I’ve been instructing other Engineers in the Trainer for about 8 years now (in fact, I have to fly tomorrow). My biggest complaint - getting people to understand that the Trainer is NOT a “video game”…and that conversely, video games can be good Training with the appropriate mindset (I was actually introduced to Falcon at work, during the late 80s). Some take to it immediately, some need “encouragement”.
So…these days I “fly” the Trainer 2-4 hours a week. I have some 500 hours in it over the last 8 years, by my guess - plus hours in a number of other Types, as well as supporting live Flight Test Missions with real airplanes.