much, much more difficult with basket then boom AA refueling
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@Tomcattwo said in much, much more difficult with basket then boom AA refueling:
@jayb
The refuel speed is set in the tanker’s .dat file in the air-air refuel section (the element is called “refuelSpeed”) …\sim\acdata folder.
Regards,
Tomcattwo
(VoiceClone)Hm, this is interesting and a bit confusing. Even jets have refuelSpeed, eg. the F-1652 has 300 kts, the F-18C has 310 kts. And the KC135 has 280.
refuelSpeed might mean that if the KC135 itself does AAR, it requires the tanker to do 280. Not that it will refuel any “customers” at 280, because the F-16 is refueled at 300 kts by the KC135? If so, the Hornet would prefer 310 but in the AAR TE the KC130 is unable to fly that fast because it being a slow aircraft. Will do some more tests …
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@jayb - in all the years I’ve been operating Hornets, I’ve never heard mention of a “refuel speed”. I know that different tankers have different operating speeds and/or may even vary them depending on Type of the Receiver, but what I hear pilots talk about mostly is closure rate on the basket before contact…once plugged, I don’t think they actually look at airspeed unless they have JHMCS or a WSO to monitor it. You don’t take your eyes off the basket, from what I hear.
I have an E/F PCL handy, and for Super Hornet AAR the only speed restriction is for the Tanker not to attempt or start refueling below 220 knots, and this make sense to me given that the flap speed for the Receiver (Hornet) is 250 knots. And to be honest, I think this is for a Super Hornet flying 5 wet as a Tanker - i.e.; with a Buddy Store.
There is no speed Restriction in the PCL for the Receiver…which is likely why I’ve never heard of such.
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@jayb I think you are correct but I will be anxious to see what your testing shows.
R/
TC2 -
@Stevie - Seems I’m more familiar with the big book than the PCL…I did manage to find some further speed limits for the Hornet re: the fuel probe…300 knots for open/close (probe in motion); 400 knots max when extended.
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Ok, from tests it seems that the refuelSpeed is the speed that the tanker will (try to) assume to accommodate the jet taking fuel. I modified the AAR training TE to put a Hornet flight in the tanker pattern with some F-16s. While the F-16s were refueling at 300 kts exactly, when it came time for my F-18C flight to refuel, the tanker increased its speed to 310.
There was a couple of issues/observations with the refueling. First, it seems random which basket you are handed. Right, center or left basket. Also, the AI wingmen will not start refueling (plug into the basket) in a turn, even though that is no issue for F-16 AI wingmen. Not that I can blame them, haha. Finally, you never see refueling of two Hornets simultaneously, like one on the left and one on the right basket. One might think that would be an efficient way to serve a long line of waiting jets. Dunno if that is real world doctrine
I can recommend this video which details real-life basket refueling the F-14 and how to make small adjustments (timestamped):
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Regarding the issue of the inability for the AI to get contact while turning is normal IAW devs.
Once they contact in level flight the can maintain position if the Tanker turns.
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@jayb
Thanks for that info and video. Very informative and useful.
Regards,
TC2 -
In what capacity are you operating Hornets? You post implies you’re not a pilot or a WSO? Sim instructor, some kind of engineer?
In other posts you implied you flew…but I never recall what or when… what is/was your flying career?
@Stevie said in much, much more difficult with basket then boom AA refueling:
@jayb - in all the years I’ve been operating Hornets, I’ve never heard mention of a “refuel speed”. I know that different tankers have different operating speeds and/or may even vary them depending on Type of the Receiver, but what I hear pilots talk about mostly is closure rate on the basket before contact…once plugged, I don’t think they actually look at airspeed unless they have JHMCS or a WSO to monitor it. You don’t take your eyes off the basket, from what I hear.
I have an E/F PCL handy, and for Super Hornet AAR the only speed restriction is for the Tanker not to attempt or start refueling below 220 knots, and this make sense to me given that the flap speed for the Receiver (Hornet) is 250 knots. And to be honest, I think this is for a Super Hornet flying 5 wet as a Tanker - i.e.; with a Buddy Store.
There is no speed Restriction in the PCL for the Receiver…which is likely why I’ve never heard of such.
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One more difference I noted between refueling F-16s and Hornets: The tanker drops altitude to around 19500 ft for Hornets, while F-16s are served at approx 21500 ft. So if you’re in a Hornet behind F-16s, be prepared for the altitude change (and vice versa). So different speeds and different altitudes
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@mirv - I’ve been a Hornet Series Flight Test Engineer for 30+ years. I’ve also had the experience of flying a RL Super Hornet from the back seat for 1.7 hours. I’ve been working Supers as long as there have BEEN Supers…very easy airplane to fly, really - even from the back seat.
I fly the Trainer now regularly - and my boss wants me to fly more. I started building a Viper pit around BMS some 8 years ago, that got noticed at work, and I got invited for a Trainer “tour” that sort of turned into a “job interview” once they saw I could not only fly but also operate the systems (I’m a Private Pilot, and sport jumper)…I can also fight, and land on the CV consistently. One of the coolest things about the Trainer is that no two sessions ever go the same way…just like RL. Including gripes on the jet.
I’ve been instructing other Engineers in the Trainer for about 8 years now (in fact, I have to fly tomorrow). My biggest complaint - getting people to understand that the Trainer is NOT a “video game”…and that conversely, video games can be good Training with the appropriate mindset (I was actually introduced to Falcon at work, during the late 80s). Some take to it immediately, some need “encouragement”.
So…these days I “fly” the Trainer 2-4 hours a week. I have some 500 hours in it over the last 8 years, by my guess - plus hours in a number of other Types, as well as supporting live Flight Test Missions with real airplanes.
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@Stevie said in much, much more difficult with basket then boom AA refueling:
@mirv - I’ve been a Hornet Series Flight Test Engineer for 30+ years. I’ve also had the experience of flying a RL Super Hornet from the back seat for 1.7 hours. I’ve been working Supers as long as there have BEEN Supers…very easy airplane to fly, really - even from the back seat.
I fly the Trainer now regularly - and my boss wants me to fly more. I started building a Viper pit around BMS some 8 years ago, that got noticed at work, and I got invited for a Trainer “tour” that sort of turned into a “job interview” once they saw I could not only fly but also operate the systems (I’m a Private Pilot, and sport jumper)…I can also fight, and land on the CV consistently. One of the coolest things about the Trainer is that no two sessions ever go the same way…just like RL. Including gripes on the jet.
I’ve been instructing other Engineers in the Trainer for about 8 years now (in fact, I have to fly tomorrow). My biggest complaint - getting people to understand that the Trainer is NOT a “video game”…and that conversely, video games can be good Training with the appropriate mindset (I was actually introduced to Falcon at work, during the late 80s). Some take to it immediately, some need “encouragement”.
So…these days I “fly” the Trainer 2-4 hours a week. I have some 500 hours in it over the last 8 years, by my guess - plus hours in a number of other Types, as well as supporting live Flight Test Missions with real airplanes.
Jokes aside, it’s that your preparation and experience in aeronautics is noticeable, one only has to read and interpret the way you pose and approach a situation or a debate. When I read it it’s like it’s me, more experienced, older and SEXY.
regards @Stevie
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That’s pretty awesome! if one didn’t or couldn’t fly, a career where you’re “toying with” and flying the real sim of your favorite (or one of your favorite) aircraft would be the next best thing for sure.
Thank you for sharing. Sometimes I have to remind myself “I can’t believe they pay me to do this…”
Sim training can be really good… even if it’s not an exact replication of something, it can teach the motor skills needed for the real thing. And of course the endless emergency procedures that prepares you for when/if it happens for real.
@Stevie said in much, much more difficult with basket then boom AA refueling:
@mirv - I’ve been a Hornet Series Flight Test Engineer for 30+ years. I’ve also had the experience of flying a RL Super Hornet from the back seat for 1.7 hours. I’ve been working Supers as long as there have BEEN Supers…very easy airplane to fly, really - even from the back seat.
I fly the Trainer now regularly - and my boss wants me to fly more. I started building a Viper pit around BMS some 8 years ago, that got noticed at work, and I got invited for a Trainer “tour” that sort of turned into a “job interview” once they saw I could not only fly but also operate the systems (I’m a Private Pilot, and sport jumper)…I can also fight, and land on the CV consistently. One of the coolest things about the Trainer is that no two sessions ever go the same way…just like RL. Including gripes on the jet.
I’ve been instructing other Engineers in the Trainer for about 8 years now (in fact, I have to fly tomorrow). My biggest complaint - getting people to understand that the Trainer is NOT a “video game”…and that conversely, video games can be good Training with the appropriate mindset (I was actually introduced to Falcon at work, during the late 80s). Some take to it immediately, some need “encouragement”.
So…these days I “fly” the Trainer 2-4 hours a week. I have some 500 hours in it over the last 8 years, by my guess - plus hours in a number of other Types, as well as supporting live Flight Test Missions with real airplanes.
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@jayb said in much, much more difficult with basket then boom AA refueling:
Ok, from tests it seems that the refuelSpeed is the speed that the tanker will (try to) assume to accommodate the jet taking fuel. I modified the AAR training TE to put a Hornet flight in the tanker pattern with some F-16s. While the F-16s were refueling at 300 kts exactly, when it came time for my F-18C flight to refuel, the tanker increased its speed to 310.
There was a couple of issues/observations with the refueling. First, it seems random which basket you are handed. Right, center or left basket. Also, the AI wingmen will not start refueling (plug into the basket) in a turn, even though that is no issue for F-16 AI wingmen. Not that I can blame them, haha. Finally, you never see refueling of two Hornets simultaneously, like one on the left and one on the right basket. One might think that would be an efficient way to serve a long line of waiting jets. Dunno if that is real world doctrine
I can recommend this video which details real-life basket refueling the F-14 and how to make small adjustments (timestamped):
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yes the operating basket is random
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yes the AI is unable to connect to basket in turn. This is due to the very precision needed to catch the basket and I have been unable to reach that accuracy within turn with the current laws we have in the code. So the way it work is that AI wait for the tanker to level and then connect. Once connected it is able to continue refueling since accuracy is no more needed
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code does not support multiple refuel in the same time. It would require massive and complex changes in the tankerBrain code. The main difficulty beeing to handle to queues in the same time and deconflict aircraft’s when they are moving from waiting to refuel to waiting positions in the same time
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@Mav-jp said in much, much more difficult with basket then boom AA refueling
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yes the operating basket is random
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yes the AI is unable to connect to basket in turn. This is due to the very precision needed to catch the basket and I have been unable to reach that accuracy within turn with the current laws we have in the code. So the way it work is that AI wait for the tanker to level and then connect. Once connected it is able to continue refueling since accuracy is no more needed
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code does not support multiple refuel in the same time. It would require massive and complex changes in the tankerBrain code. The main difficulty beeing to handle to queues in the same time and deconflict aircraft’s when they are moving from waiting to refuel to waiting positions in the same time
Regarding 1, good to know. 2 and 3 are no big issue.
One of my obstacles right now for connecting in the Hornet is to follow your advice from the video with “follow a trajectory”. I can keep a path and a speed, but I have not figured out a good point to aim for yet. I usually end up a little too much to the left of the basket. Would you recommend using rudders ?
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@jayb said in much, much more difficult with basket then boom AA refueling:
@Mav-jp said in much, much more difficult with basket then boom AA refueling
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yes the operating basket is random
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yes the AI is unable to connect to basket in turn. This is due to the very precision needed to catch the basket and I have been unable to reach that accuracy within turn with the current laws we have in the code. So the way it work is that AI wait for the tanker to level and then connect. Once connected it is able to continue refueling since accuracy is no more needed
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code does not support multiple refuel in the same time. It would require massive and complex changes in the tankerBrain code. The main difficulty beeing to handle to queues in the same time and deconflict aircraft’s when they are moving from waiting to refuel to waiting positions in the same time
Regarding 1, good to know. 2 and 3 are no big issue.
One of my obstacles right now for connecting in the Hornet is to follow your advice from the video with “follow a trajectory”. I can keep a path and a speed, but I have not figured out a good point to aim for yet. I usually end up a little too much to the left of the basket. Would you recommend using rudders ?
using rudder is the last thing you can imagine doing for precise flying in that case.
Using rudder will provoke induced roll and that will be a nightmare
have you followed my advice ? => first train in Mirage 2000
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@Mav-jp Thanks, I will try the Mirage as well
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@Mav-jp - using rudders really depends on the jet you are flying - I know Viper drivers seem to fear rudders, but Hornet drivers use them quite a bit, particularly when slow. Pretty sure Harrier guys do as well…I know they have to in hover.
Had an interesting commentary on using rudders from one of my guys that went and did a demo in the Netherlands not long ago and tried to get their pilots to do a Hornet Pirouette - which requires a full boot (to the bulkhead) of rudder input…just couldn’t get them to do it.
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@mirv - Yeah…that’s exactly what I’ve always called my career - I “play with airplanes” for a living!
It’s kind of interesting taking people that have never even touched aircraft controls and dropping them straight into a fighter Trainer - I’ve learned a LOT about having to overcome natural muscle memory (and human attention spans, in general…though I’ve also had some psychology classes that help my approach to teaching more than even I would have thought) and learning to focus on driving the airplane in spite of it. Today’s session was one such example - my student had a strong tendency to lean to the right…most people do tend to lean to one side or the other, and I think this may show more with a center stick than a side stick…but I’m guessing.
I think the hardest flying skill I work with people on other than landing is trying to do a loop - one gal didn’t believe loops could even be done until I did two of them to show her. Almost everyone falls out over the top, and usually to the right side (left side once inverted) - because pulling the stick aft with their forearm against their ribs feeds in right stick, and they un-balance. This is definitely a center-stick thing.
Can get the same sort of problem in a Hawk or T-45 because the stick is hinged for roll halfway up the shaft, off the floor from the pitch axis - and the T-45’s ailerons remain very effective until you are at a dead stop…if you’re feeding in back stick to slow the landing rollout, the jet can be flipped over forward, wing high, because you aren’t pulling straight. We actually lost a T-45 (but not the crew, as I recall) due to this during the Development Test Program while I was working that…and the T-45 Trainer does it too (I think I have a 100 hours or so in that one), so I pay particular attention.
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I don’t think Viper drivers fear using the rudder. I have not heard that and Dan Hampton mentions using the rudder during jinking to move the nose. It just doesn’t make a ton of sense to use the rudder since it’s all FBW and connected with the ailerons …there isn’t much need to.
There are also several prohibited maneuvers with the rudder (among others):
- Repeated maximum rudder reversals.
- Rudder rolls or rudder-assisted rolls of more than 90 degrees of bank angle change with any store on station 3, 4, 6, or 7.
- Rapid rudder release or reversal above 300 knots/0.6 mach.
I did a few rudder only rolls in the T-6…but it kinda sucks and throws you against the sidewall…. Doesn’t really serve a purpose….
@Stevie said in much, much more difficult with basket then boom AA refueling:
@Mav-jp - using rudders really depends on the jet you are flying - I know Viper drivers seem to fear rudders, but Hornet drivers use them quite a bit, particularly when slow. Pretty sure Harrier guys do as well…I know they have to in hover.
Had an interesting commentary on using rudders from one of my guys that went and did a demo in the Netherlands not long ago and tried to get their pilots to do a Hornet Pirouette - which requires a full boot (to the bulkhead) of rudder input…just couldn’t get them to do it.
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@Stevie said in much, much more difficult with basket then boom AA refueling:
@Mav-jp - using rudders really depends on the jet you are flying - I know Viper drivers seem to fear rudders, but Hornet drivers use them quite a bit, particularly when slow. Pretty sure Harrier guys do as well…I know they have to in hover.
Had an interesting commentary on using rudders from one of my guys that went and did a demo in the Netherlands not long ago and tried to get their pilots to do a Hornet Pirouette - which requires a full boot (to the bulkhead) of rudder input…just couldn’t get them to do it.
My point is not about using the rudder or not (I’m a glider pilot I using only rudder and nearly not stick)
The point is using rudder in accurate need for basket refuel , rudder will provoke induced roll which will make it even more difficult