Tips to engage SA-10's with HARM's?
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If you know the position of sa-10, directly fly towards it at 20-24k feet, be sure you’ve turned your ECM on in XMIT mode 3. Turning on your ECM is most important part before sa-10 launches a missile on you, if you do that after launch you’re dead. Launch your harms in EOM submode at approximately 50 miles with some interval. Continue to fly towards sa-10 battery and don’t care about being locked. Your ECM will cover you until 36nm and also cover your harms. When sa-10 radar is gone from your RWR don’t forget to turn your ECM off in case launched missiles chases you in HOJ mode. You can do this with AI-assigned steer points, I launch first missile at 5th steerpoint towards 7th targetpoint. Better than flying low because you will probably get killed by manpads or sa8/9/13/15 or enter into desperate fight with MIGs and SUs.
PS: You can use E-8C JSTAR to locate air defenses, it helps a lot. -
@spotdott Hi spot, some way to convert .acmi to .vhs?, I use .vhs to see ingame, into BMS, can’t read .acmi
On testing, and against SA-10, I’m trying to beat for myself, alone, to avoid this danger to any fighter on my air-team, and avoid to lose any of them.
Close distance strategy against these SA-10’s are very dangerous, I see several videos about defeating SA-10’s and all this pop-up tactics are really hard to do, some miss and… BUM!, you’re death. -
@slient Interesting tips. I’ll try to test it.
— I test it —
I did some tests and it’s also dangerous to do.You must turn quick and go to low altitude to get more speed quickly too.
The SA-10 missiles are first going against the fighter, and HARM’s can advance a few more, but at about 10 nm’s to 15 nm’s from the objective, the SA-10’s launch 1 missile against each HARM, and destroy them when they was on their way near to hit their objectives.
Sincerely, I like so much these SA-10’s, they are really a very nice challenge.
In campaign mode, a simply strategy but slow tactic on-time, is to send an armored battalion to destroy these SA’s sites when they are dangerous to beat from air, and provide cover for our batallion against enemy fighters. With 1 or 2 batallion I think is enough.
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@Mav-jp Interesting tip.
It’s an interesting strategy, leader over 3000ft to 4000 ft and wingman go deck to very low altitude.
In the tests, giving the “go deck” order to the wingman and flying between 3000ft and 4000ft, allows launching 2 HARM’s just when the SA-10 is in the inner RWR circle/ring, above 36nm’s, 3-5 seconds between every launch, giving the order to “attack my target” and next giving the “weapons free order”.
Depending on the situation, you can hit at least with 1 of the HARM’s, maybe achieve the 2 hits, and take out the SA-10’s radar, to make a next bomb mission with MK-82’s or GBU-39 SDB’s from distance if you know the exactly waypoint and set the targets PPT before start the mission.
Important is that both fighters turned quickly when launching the HARM’s, descending to low altitude, below 300ft, and at full speed in the opposite direction of the SA-10 radar signal. It’s very risky, the SA-10’s missiles came close to taking us down, a few more seconds without turning quickly, and we would be dead.
These was a really good, but dangerous, strategy to beat a SA-10. Pop-up tactic is, by far, much more dangerous than this.
I’m still doing more tests, but mainly alone, without wingman, to not risk the lives of the AI pilots and find the best tactic possible with not so much danger.
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@cchaparro Are you sure you jammed the sa-10’s radar? I will send a acmi file later when I do a dead mission, because it works %90 of times for me.
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@cchaparro https://mega.nz/file/NhUXDLhL#GVkFuU6KO00XwKHZRD8WI5pGvyRJAIvwkUGRjhpRQKA
here is an engagement in Baltic. Both missiles hit. -
@slient Very interesting situation.
You are so lucky, SA-10 missiles fail to hit your HARM’s.
In my situation, on Korea original theater, the SA-10’s have great precision and hit my HARM’s without any fail.
I do another test that was better, I fly to the steerpoint at very low altitude, below 300ft, and at full speed. When at 25 nm’s of the steerpoint, I prepare POS mode, EOM, 10A target selected, and climbing up to 8600ft slowly, and on some point between 4000ft and 8600ft, the HARM’s are in range and can be fired with all settings ok on the HUD, firing the first one, and 20 seconds later firing the second one, then turn in the opposite direction of the SA site at maximum speed and at very low altitude. First HARM hits good, second HARM fail. No SA-10’s missiles fired.
Not all situations are the same, sometimes perhaps is hard, sometimes SA-10 no reacts because is a surprise attack from very close distance. Was over the water and plane terrain without mountains.
For example, I tried to attack with 4 fighters, and 3 of them were shot down. They was very big losses.
SA-10 needs a mix of tactics, all your tips are very nice to try and test. In campaign mode, can save first and then try these tips. Depending on the situation, can apply one or another tip. It’s a great challenge to confront these SA-10’s.
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@molnibalage said in Tips to engage SA-10’s with HARM’s?:
Attack the same time from two different directions. Because the Flap Lid has only 105 or 90 degree launch arc.
Hi
In ttba we use two azimuths offset by 100°.
We use the OA1 points and the ETA to be in the right place at the right time.
A little calculator helps you to calculate the OA1 points.https://www.djetdail.fr/falcon/data_falcon/calculettes/attaque_sead_separation_eng.php
Bonne chasse
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@cchaparro all theaters run the same code, so there won’t be difference in Korea. I myself completed bear trap campaign. Also sa-10 didn’t even launch a missile neither on me or to my harms. I used low flying approach before, I think if harms fly low sa-10 can’t engage them.
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@cchaparro you need to download Tacview (there is a free version here https://www.tacview.net/) to use .acmi files.
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@Fearripper96
I know, but: “However, after the trial period of 21 days, the more advanced features will be disabled. If you wish to continue to use these features, you will need to purchase Tacview Standard or above.”, and I don’t want to use a program which overrides options you might need at some point, and I haven’t the 100€ that costs to buy, for example, on Steam.I play BMS occasionally, not all the time, Tacview is an excellent program, but I can’t buy it for now and to use it occasionally only. For regular and pro players, is a must to have. Thank’s for the tip.
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@slient
I Jammed them, following the instructions, but the two HARM’s are destroyed at high altitude.Until now, only at very low altitude, and at 25-30nm’s, up to between 4000ft-8600ft, shooting in POS and EOM, with 10T or 10A selected, waiting for in range on HUD a few seconds, firing the 2 HARM’s with 20 secs of difference between every shoot, and then go deck at very low altitude, fast and at maximum speed turning to the opposite direction of the SA-10, only with this parameters I achieve the best results for now.
Obviously, has disadvantages, flying at very low altitude exposes the flight to the threats you mention, manpads, AAA, etc, and maybe 1 HARM can hit, but misses the other one, and the SA-10 continue being a threat, until preparing another mission with HARM’s.
Flying at high altitude and/or firing the HARM’s from more distance than 25-30 nm’s, allows the SA-10 to intercept and destroy the HARM’s with great precision, no matter the scenario/theater, as they all have the same code as you indicate. Perhaps your method needs more training on my side, with ECM/Jammer. High altitudes are a great advantage for the missiles of the SA-10.
It’s really good that each player details their methods and shares them, so we can find the best method that works best for everyone of us, and use it in virtual combat.
Nice tips from all of you, really nice and good players.
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I tried the “TE_BMS_15_HARM_Plan” for the first time in a while… took a seat in the strike flight. I noticed the following:
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the Growlers seem very overpowered… none of the SA-10 or SA-4 sites fired a shot. I don’t know what other shorad or aaa exists there, but on acmi nobody fired anything at us – it seemed like we had free reign over the target area, even as I popped up to ~1500 ft making multiple passes
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the two SEAD flights (8x F-16s!) never fired any of their HARMs… on acmi they appeared to get scared and turn around and directly RTB, after approaching within ~30nm of the SAM sites. (are the Growlers interfering with AI ability to use HARM?)
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every flight was RTB while the Growlers remained on station… but at some point, while just 30nm from the SA-10 sites, they appeared to switch off (?) their jammers… the SA-10 and SA-5 sites all sprang to life, all at once, and fired multiple missiles at each of the growlers! those poor Growlers, who were heroes of the day, were vaporized.
I feel like there are some bugs here…
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@molnibalage said in Tips to engage SA-10’s with HARM’s?:
Attack the same time from two different directions. Because the Flap Lid has only 105 or 90 degree launch arc.
Very good point, Molni. I guess I was thinking single player. I wonder if fragging a AI DEAD flight whose flight plan has them attacking from 180 deg. from yours would work
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@airtex2019 AFAIK sead flights don’t engage SAMs until somebody is engaged by SAM. But growler jams all the radars so neither SEAD flight nor SAMs engage each other.
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@drtbkj
It’s really interesting tactic when not alone and fly with other fighters.The other interesting tactic is the one that Mav-jp mentioned before, to instruct wingmen to go on deck, at very low altitude, all can attack at same time with wide spacing between fighters, for example, or perhaps you can go at about 4000ft at about 25-30 nm’s to attract the attention of the SA-10, while wingmen are at low altitude, and shoot you first your HARM’s while give the order to shoot at your wingmen.
All are nice tips that can be tested to achieve the objective of destroy SA-10’s with the least possible risk to the entire flight team.
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@slient said in Tips to engage SA-10’s with HARM’s?:
@airtex2019 AFAIK sead flights don’t engage SAMs until somebody is engaged by SAM. But growler jams all the radars so neither SEAD flight nor SAMs engage each other.
We were definitely being painted and tracked (<10> on inner RWR ring). It’s night time and slightly cloudy… so, not exactly practical to wait to see a launch.
I’m not sure what I expected. Ideally the SEAD flights would launch HARMs in prebrief mode, one every few minutes per SA-10 site?
But with multiple SEAD flights x multiple SAM sites… ok, as I write this I realize, the AI code in BMS is probably nowhere that sophisticated to coordinate all that.
I’ll try deleting the growlers from the package, and see what they do.
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@airtex2019
I didn’t see this additional saved training missions, but I load this one to test it, and from steerpoint 5 crossing beyond steerpoint 6, I found hard SAM’s defense front of me, including SA-10’s, SA-4’s, SA-5 and SA-7. I use the 3th flight, Hawkeye team, and these SAM’s reacts very very aggressive and hard to defeat!.But I don’t see any Growler there, you refer to SA-21 Growler?. It’s not on TE editor, and I don’t see info on the Tactical Reference about SA-21’s, I only see the SA-19, but no other SAM’s up from 19.
Am I missing something here?. I use 4.37.2 version.
However, I recommend creating a single and clean TE mission with a single SA-10 battalion, 80nm’s away from the airbase and place this SA-10 at any enemy airbase, without mixing other SAM’s or threats to test tactics only against SA-10’s in this case.
And share with us your best results to can learn the best strategies to beat it. And try alone, then with a wingman, and finally all 4 fighters on an AI team. These tips will work for the campaign mode. And for multiplayer purposes, but with human players is more… “easy” than with AI or alone. This is the challenge.
Note: Growlers are fighters?, hum, nice info that exists the SA-21 Growler and fighters named the same. Very interesting. I have searched and find these two heroes: Boeing EA-18G Growler. But carrying 3 AN/ALQ-99 pod’s?.
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@cchaparro sorry to confuse, yeah I meant E/A-18G … electronic-warfare platform based on the Super Hornet… informally known as “growlers”. in the TE they are “Caddy” flight
I suppose this TE is meant for human to take lead of one of the SEAD flights, and micro your wingmen to fire at the various SA-10 sites? I’ll give that a try. I was just surprised to see the AI-led flights to do … absolutely nothing.
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@airtex2019 instead of deleting growlers, I prefer to assign growlers but instead of sead mission I assign DEAD mission to SAM sites around the target area. If there are SA-10 batteries I simply don’t fly there before they’re struck.