Dealing with the J20
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Hi,
I’m currently running a KTO Rolling Fire campaign. Its day two and the PRC have joined the fray. All the major North Korean airfields have been neutralised and their ground forces are getting a bit of a kicking along the FLOT/FEBA. I’m operating out of OSAN flying a Block 40 F16 and concentrating on AI and CAS missions, generally as a two ship. Its night time.Suddenly, I’m presented with intermittent RWR jamming symbology. Threat call to AWACS comes back with a pair of Bogeys inbound hot at 35 miles. But no ID. I switch to AA and turn into them slaving the Sniper Pod to the FCR. With no sign of burnthrough I order the wingman to go weapons free, in the forlorn hope he can save the day. Occasional warning chirps from the RWR and then a 22 symbol too close for comfort to the centre of the display. A few seconds later both my wingman and I are toast! Welcome to coming across the 5th Gen J20!
I cravenly discard the mission and slink off to do some research. I find posts covering the problem, which involve “Mad Dogging” your Slammers and getting out of Dodge, tout de bloody suite! I experiment with no result but happily survive. In retrospect, I think I was firing too early to have a hope of success. After a few more failed attempts, frustration sets in and I shift my focus away from North of Seoul to further East where you only have to contend with slightly easier opponents like SU 30s.
All too soon I’m forced by tactical necessity to resume sorties in my original stamping ground. Intel tells me that the J20s have been attritted quite nicely in my absence and there are only 5 left! On my next mission, I run into the target area via a friendly Hawk SAM battery that is conveniently close to to the FEBA. All too soon the tell tale signs of J20s appear from RWR and AWACs. I press for a while but when the dreaded 22 is halfway down the display (AWACS reports them inside 20 nm) I bottle it, split S, and leg it back towards the Hawk battery on full burner in the dive. I get the full blown active missile warning but outrun it. The J20 slowly fades from the RWR and I climb back to altitude. Turning back towards the target area, I rinse and repeat this technique a couple more times.
Finally, I manage to get intermittent locks on the enemy and ID it as a J20 via the Sniper Pod, I press the attack and he isn’t firing (prob out of missiles). I manage to get a solid lock as the range decreases. Switch to DF mode and give him a Slammer to the face at close range. In a panic I discover that he has a wingman in trail. I quickly lock him up and fire but miss. In for a penny I think and hard turn into him in the merge. Surprisingly, he doesn’t put up much of a fight for some reason and I close him down for a guns kill!
Throughout, my wingman had stayed with me like a champ he still even has his GBU 12s , so we nipped over to the FEBA and he dispatched 10 enemy tanks before following me back to OSAN for tea and medals!
On the next mission I dispatched a further J20 using the same technique, leaving only two to contend with as the campaign progresses.
Some final thoughts.
- Don’t fire too early when using Mad Dog. Might be effective at under 20 nm when head on.
- Patience and lots of luck.
- Use AWACs for bearing, range and altitude indications.
- Split S and run for the hills.
- Enemy AI foolishly presses when out of missiles.
- The J20 seems a bit of a handfull and is relatively easy to kill in a DF. (Wishful thinking?)
- The Hawk battery apparently couldn’t see the J20 and never fired. (Makes sense)
Sorry for this massive post, but I thought I would share the experience. If there is anyone out there with other or better techniques to counter the J20, I would be most grateful to hear about them.
This sim continues to awe the hell out of me after all these years. You never stop learning and I’m incredibly grateful to all those who have made it possible.
Regards
Dram. -
@Dram
My suggestion: I’ve you have an J20 indication abort the mission , turn and run… -
Send up a 4 ship BARCAP ahead of you then sneak in and take the J20 in the flank !!!
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Hi,
I absolutely concur, unless you really have to complete the mission. I get the feeling, perhaps unfounded, that friendly AI will only do so much in regards to the J20 threat. It then falls on your shoulders to eliminate them and to do so I think you need to get pretty inventive. If you check the J20 Squadron stats they are pretty sobering (In a not good for BlueFor way).
Regards
Dram -
Hi,
I didn’t try a 4 ship BARCAP and ambush from the flank tactic, it might be worth a shot. But I think you may lose your entire CAP! I did task 2 interlocking 2 ship BARCAPS from my Squadron, to position over my target area, about 2 mins ahead of my ingress to target. They were all shot down, apparently without recognising the threat or getting a single missile off! Shortly thereafter my Wingman and I joined them in Valhalla as we pressed the attack!
Not a good day for the 36th FS. 6-0 to RedFor in 4 minutes flat! Thank God for the discard button!!
Regards
Dram. -
@Dram What did you tasked ? F-16 ?
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F-16 1V1 has no chance against the J-20.
J-20 is very fast & some of its AA missiles have very long range and no RWR indication, BIG PROBLEM.
If there is F-15’s & F-22’s that is in the area and maneuvers towards the J-20’s, stay away for few minutes outside the AA combat area. Let the big boys handle the J-20.
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Hi,
My Squadron (36th FS) is equipped with the Block 40 F16, based at OSAN in this campaign.
Regards
Dram. -
Frag an escort flight of F-22A Raptors, they will sort em out for you no problem.
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@regev
Hi,Sound advice, but unfortunately, F22 is unavailable in the Rolling Fire campaign and the few F15s are only sporadically available at this stage of the campaign due to prior tasking pressures. As a general rule I’m somewhat loathe to take control of any other Squadrons apart from my own, and play the cards I’m dealt, in the name of immersion.
You are probably right in your assertion regarding F16 v J20 1v1 in a DF situation. However in campaign there are other factors at play, including friendly formations in the area to distract the bandit (And use up his ordnance), the use of AWACS which can assist with BRA vectoring and the large distances from the J20 Homeplate in Shenyang PRC. There is also the fact that the J20 seems to press attacks even after their missiles have all been used.
The F16 can win ( I have now splashed 5 of the beasts) with a lot of patience and some luck).
Regards
Dram. -
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@Dram They are if your server admin adds them.
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@Dram said in Dealing with the J20:
Hi,
My Squadron (36th FS) is equipped with the Block 40 F16, based at OSAN in this campaign.
Regards
Dram.Viper is not able to deal with modern a2a threat, best should be to send Raptor, and if none are available, try Eagle, they have been the air superiority fighter of the USAF until the Raptor came in.
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@Dram said in Dealing with the J20:
Hi,
I concur, but unfortunately F22 is unavailable in Rolling Fire.
Regards
Dram.I agree with the others, best choice is to turn and stay away from the J-20’s.
But honestly, I think the J-20 shouldn’t be included in the campaigns at all. Especially if the F-22 isn’t available. There’s a mismatch there. The J-20 cannot be modelled realistically (just like the F-22) and in real life modern day F-16’s have toys available that we don’t have yet in BMS, like AESA radar. Not that that would be a fair fight, but it’s not really realistic to have modern 5th gen fighters against F-16’s that don’t have the latest upgrades.
@TOPOLO said in Dealing with the J20:
Viper is not able to deal with modern a2a threat, best should be to send Raptor, and if none are available, try Eagle, they have been the air superiority fighter of the USAF until the Raptor came in.
Eagles wouldn’t fare much better than F-16’s against 5th gen fighters.
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I have 2 suggestions:
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use MISSION COMMANDER and take the J-20s off. You can replace then for SU-35 or MIGs…
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Create an scort team with F-15s or F22s in your base and always use them…
I’ve never killed a J-20… but died for them a lot LOL
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That is, why many campaigners remove the J20 squadron via Missions Commander. A F-22 squadron comming in later in the campaign would be nice.
Before China enters the war, I often have gone over to a strategy of bombing war production or doing AI (after taking out air defenses and airbases and working down the North Korean airforce).
When this event plays, I reset the priority sliders and PAKs at once to an overly defensive strategy (PAK only near the FLOT, defensive counter air and aircraft to almost max).The problem are not only the J20, but all the Su-35 and 30s crammed on chinese airbases.
And the J20 fly all over the map in every direction (just load a savegame joining their squadron to prove this).So I always take out the Laoning carrier first and then try to take out one of their main airbases to attrite the fighters of the other one before the first one gets repaired. If you have a good timing, you take out the other one just before the first one gets active again.
You have 2 options:
Attack Shenyang airbase and go against a bunch of SA-10 beside the J20. Plan the giant attack Packages flying in over the sea in the west.Or attack Ljuhe airbase where you will have a really hard time getting to the target over land with all those waves of Flankers and J20.
I prefer the first way. When the J20 come back again, it is much easier because many of the Flankers are gone.
Of course, the Maddog tactic is very helpful, but I’m so good at it to attrite the entire squadron in endless missions. Also, your entire airforce suffers a lot in this phase.
See here how to fight them in a good strategic way (some called it suicidal, but the total losses of your forces are lower by far!):
https://forum.falcon-bms.com/topic/24929/china-enters-war-remove-j-20-strategic-approach?_=1710585937034 -
@bmebr said in Dealing with the J20:
- Create an Escort team with F-15s or F22s in your base and always use them…
^ Best way for sure. With proper fragging of support flights you can even frag campaign bombing missions in the area and don’t get touched at all…unless you enjoy fragging improbable odds missions.
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@Atze-0 I must try it in the future!!
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After running into them during the course of the campaign. I would eventually focus on laying down ambush CAP for the J-20. I would determine their general Patrol route. They plan BARCAPs and TARCAP in different directions. The Objective is to get the J-20 mixed in close with other fighters. Then you have a chance of catching them. I shot down about 6 J-20 using this method while losing also 6 jets on my side. So in general seems like a reasonable exchange.