Europe Theater Discussion
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i was, and will again be at some point, interested in doing modeling for the theater. however, joining the squadron has demanded a lot of practice/mission flight time, which is precious these days, so it became, as predicted, pretty low on the priority list.
but another main reason for that is the learning curve. what i will be doing is not hard, i just need to take the couple of hours at some point and get into it. but for now, all my free time i can get on my rig is spent flying.
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Is this project is alive?
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Guys, making a good theater needs lot’s of resources and years of time. Depending on the level u want to do it and the drawbacks as some times developments in other areas might overcome u and need a restart…
Example EMF started in 2005 and it’s not released yet. That’s 9 years… Imagine… and the first release will not cover the whole theater area…Now think of this if Europe let’s say needs another 2+ years and in the mean time BMS changes for example terrain engine then it might need a restart… or it will be a major drawback…
So as Polak said needs lot’s of time and many human resources…
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**@DJ:**we are looking forward finished new stuff … not new project.
said DJ (Falconeer since 2010 ?)….BTW howto get finished stuff without WIP stuff…I will meditate about it…
**@arty:**Now think of this if Europe let’s say needs another 2+ years and in the mean time BMS changes for example terrain engine then it might need a restart… or it will be a major drawback…
So as Polak said needs lot’s of time and many human resources…Do u really believe this?
What about at least some basic backward compatibility?
BMS changed the rule F4 terrain always had (even F3.0 and 80ths Abrams simulator IIRC)…there were about 5 other hobby Falcons before (noone had problem with this)…I noticed it after BMS was out…it is reported with pictures in many posts. There were some major updates since that report. Nothing changed…I have just rather vaque feedback with no real action from BMS team…and then DJ (team member) says “Before seeing such theater rising, I would love to see at least one, only one, being finished.” and “I do not really care” followsdont tell me about “human resources” and hard “development process” please
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well DCS is doing the same right now… and there is no backward compatibility… they even redo all 3d ground objects…
Sorry but what u say here:
BMS changed the rule F4 terrain always had (even F3.0 and 80ths Abrams simulator IIRC)…there were about 5 other hobby Falcons before (noone had problem with this)…I noticed it after BMS was out…it is reported with pictures in many posts. There were some major updates since that report. Nothing changed…I have just rather vaque feedback with no real action from BMS team…and then DJ (team member) says “Before seeing such theater rising, I would love to see at least one, only one, being finished.” and “I do not really care” follows
I can’t understand it…
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said DJ (Falconeer since 2010 ?)
1998
….BTW how to get finished stuff without WIP stuff…
You perfectly understand what I mean.
Imagine if we had released an unfinished 4.32 Beta version …. What would ppl say if we had in the same time the 4.33 in WIP
… a 4.34 in WIP in paralleled … and another 4.35 being developed simultaneously … but never had released a single patch of a “working” version for the 4.32 … ?That being said … I’m not complaining about the time needed (I well know that it take time … a lot of time and work) … just seeing that there are a lot of WIP, and wondering when they will be working … if they will one day or will be abandoned like some other projects in the past.
I will meditate about it…
If you need to meditate about it …
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Is this project is alive?
That depends on which project you mean and what you mean with alive…
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Now think of this if Europe let’s say needs another 2+ years and in the mean time BMS changes for example terrain engine then it might need a restart… or it will be a major drawback…
So as Polak said needs lot’s of time and many human resources…
Nope. Terrain is low priority. Yeah i know that sounds completely ridiculous. Let me explain.
Terrain is generic stuff - at least it should be. You put in data and a capable engine autogens the terrain. Today you need to place and adjust tiles and such a crap. Imho that’s not what a good terrain should be made of. Sure you can create an awesome VFR scenery, but tiles are always only a snapshot.
What really matters are tons of 3d models on the ground both civ. & mil. That’s how a theater becomes alive.
We are far from having a minimum amount of 3d models.Throughout the last year we had ~12-15 ppl. joining Lazystone and me. They were all sooo enthusiastic and wanted to join. Not a single one complete at least one f***ing 3d model of anything. I’m not talking about anything complex. They don’t have to start with 3d pits, just some simple buildings with a nice texture would be more than enough. The majority didn’t even feel the need to post a singe post on the board. Sorry, if I sound rude - I’m just pretty frustrated.
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That depends on which project you mean and what you mean with alive…
Cretating even just an empty and functional Europe map where you can apply or build your DB and your campaigns.
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this thread is a bit generic…well, we are talking about Europe at least…or some of us are European
@DJ: my project is not the new one…many winters passed over my head, since 1st CATE config was made (with angry), 1st BMP pixel and tile was placed with love…
It is not problem for me to work silently hidden and unseen…just make something with these f*****g diagonals:-| (Monster did in one hour and his program works in 3d too)@Sphynx: Did not know you have so big team.
BTW I disagree terrain is low priority. Terrain is the base, rest is in database (already usefull). -
Despite my rather limited expertise in ALL aspects of terrain building I would like to enter this discussion with this few comments:
a. European theater is so much harder to represent properly and believably in 2D and 3D because of intensity of human build infrastructures.
b. Even if that would sound strange coming from me I agree, that I agree that flat terrains (tiles) should not be what determines ONLY how this or that region of the world feels decently from low and high altitudes.
c. We have done quite a lot in 2D area (even if not 100% available yet - Flare and other projects), but 3D Editor provided by BMS as a native tool has been sadly, if not completely, neglected in various possibilities it has to add to terrains.
d. Complex and densely populated and industrialized areas (like Europe or now many other places in the world) cannot look convincing if 2D is well coordinated with 3D elements - that in itself is a big question how much Falcon performance can handle. Balkan theater could be perhaps the closest to what is required for Europe and all recent accomplishments like FO expertise, their version of 2D terrain, combined with Nove’s improvements should give some clues of where we are at.
e. For campaigns to work in such a dense environment all editing/checking of DB (!), paths, areas, links and what have you could difficult as well as very time consuming as well. Considering all that, good,expert and dedicated TEAM is indispensable for project of such a magnitude. Otherwise it may take ages.
f. For God’s love I also CANNOT comprehend why those changed diagonals on terrain (several times mentioned by Lucas) might have SUCH a impact on anything!!!
Did I forget anything … o yes, perhaps many other things , but to stop anyway just final advice is to keep cool, friendly, appreciative and persistent in pushing Falcon envelope despite all odds and passing quickly time. My 2c.
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@Sphynx: Did not know you have so big team.
BTW I disagree terrain is low priority. Terrain is the base, rest is in database (already usefull).It’s not - we are two LS and me. The rest just vanished…
I don’t think the Db is usefull in any kind of way for a acceptable ET. But yeah - that’s just my opinion. And as long as the terrain is in such a bad condition I don’t think working on it makes any sense. -
Hey Lukas,
said DJ (Falconeer since 2010 ?)….BTW howto get finished stuff without WIP stuff…I will meditate about it…
some comments from my side because same POV like Dee-Jay.
Speaking personal here I really would like to see one community F4 theater coming close towards “finished”, with working campaigns, UI, terrain, maybe some new 3d models, etc.
To get this done think community has to join forces instead of requesting a new theater for every conflict heating up in RL these days.E.g. I got some ideas and it made some bugs to show up, when did play with Balkans theater.
But to get this had to do quite some work on the theater by myself.So no NO against any new theater in general, maybe more the REQUEST to focus one a few things, because we also would love to see them released!!!
Cheers
Biker -
f. For God’s love I also CANNOT comprehend why those changed diagonals on terrain (several times mentioned by Lucas) might have SUCH a impact on anything!!!
I feel so week…… perhaps i am drunked again…PEACE
BTW I LOVE U ALL…as Mikeal Jackson did
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rest in peace.
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Sorry, if I sound rude - I’m just pretty frustrated.
+1
… whereat “I’m just pretty frustrated” is quite an understatement
to describe my mood.@ Dee-Jay and biker
the ETG project is not a new project. In fact it has been started many years ago.Ask the BMS folks what happend regarding this project and why it happend,
… they can tell you a nice story for sure.@All
Some of you may know me as a small community modder from back in the BMS 2.0/OF days,
where all addon theaters have been early beta, without working campaigns,
… only korean buildings (DB), etc.And hell, I was flying those betas for 10 years, … and was disappointed
regarding working campaign and still korean buildings with each release,
again and again.At that point (Aug 04, 2007) I’ve been recruited (beside 5-6 other guys) by a good (BMS) lad
for modelling/skinning for the ETG (Europe Theater Group) where “Sphynx” was and still is the teamleader.Soon after, another huge well known team recruited also, AND they had a really good beta to fly with.
Next all the 5-6 other guys disappeared quickly for several reasons.Left over was “Sphynx” and me. … now what? working for both groups wasn’t possible
and if I’ve left ETG at that time, the ET project would have been dead with a mouseclick or two for sure.BUT if we could recruit fresh guys, then we could build a team with at least 5- 10 modellers,
to create europe looking generic buildings, landmarks, specific airbase buildings like towers, etc.I mean, HELL it’s for an europe theater, … why should those who can modell and skin simple buildings
or more not be willing to work on such a project?So beside modelling I’ve started to recruit modellers and skinners, and yes there have been a few,
who are able and willing to spend their time, … but not at the same time and not for long
… for several reasons. So we have been never more than 3-4 members at any time.And NO ONE of them finished a simple f…ing box!
Huh??? create a box in 3DSMAX, delete bottom faces/ polys because they will never be seen insim,
then texmap it and create a nice europe looking texture for it shouldn’t be that hard.With a few mouseclicks more, some could even model a simple but good looking house. … imagine.
Yes, creating many 3D buildings for a ET is a huge workload and time consuming.
And yes, it’s pure 3D modelling, …but isn’t that what 3D modellers do?Hmmm, … maybe if we had a beta terrain to fly, then poeple would be more interrested
and stay for longer.
So I started to read into old forums, listen to terrain gurus on the BMS forums closely
and created a basic 64 segmented EU terrain, but noticed that the alps have been cutted which looked
terrible.
Next I’ve created a basic 128 seg. terrain, but noticed that to get there where “Lukas”
aready is would take me many years, so I’ve stopped terrain stuff to go back to 3D modelling.BUT I’ve learned alot about terrain creation during that time,
and in contray I’ve spotted many mismatches and limitations within the terrain engine
and the available tools for terrain creation.Yes, you can create a terrain which “could” look like europe,
BUT you can’t “model” it.Hey that pyramid is the “Zugpitze” in the alps, … looks great, … WOW :nosep:
Europe is full of landmarks, with roads near huge/small/med. rivers,
highways, country roads, country lanes, railways, tight valeys, etc.
where an aircraft should fly over nicely looking 3D cities/towns/buildings,
instead of flying over just a few pixels on the tiles.Anyway, in that period a few fresh guys joned us and disappeared … for several reasons.
Once again, we have been never more that 3-4 members at any time.And NO ONE of them finished a simple f…ing box!
While even I was bored with modelling 3D buildings alone, I took a break and 3D modelled my
very first aircraft which will be usefull in a ET.
todo:- propeller animation (waiting for BMS 4.33)
- lower LODs
- more skinsets
- .dat (uses modified standard .dat atm.)
And yes I flew that AC in the 128 seg. terrain I’ve created.
Anyway, … who should be motivated if there is noone creating 3D modells beside LS?
So I’ve created a few basic 3D modelling video tutorials, which will allow
even beginners to 3D model nice stuff.Additionally I’ve tried to recruit as much as possible in a short period of time
and told them the huge workload and that I’m searching for guys with “balls”
who are willing to spend their time on that longtiime project.
… pure 3D modelling, … no beta to fly with.And there was really a period (not that far) where we have been 6-7 members
at the same time, … all of them full of enthusiastic, with video tutorials available, …And again, … NO ONE of them finished a simple f…ing box!
WTF…Actually I’m heavy RL busy until let’s say end of september, so I’ve stopped working on ET project,
which results in no new posts in our forum and it looks like spamm bots are trying to get their hands on it.While looking at the view count of this thread it seems there is much interest
by the community in flying an EU cold war theater, but at the same time noone is willing to spend their
time and efforts on such a project.For one guy alone (me) it’s way to much work to get it done or even to get it nearly done,
and I will not spend the rest of my life modelling for a theater which will
probably never see the light of the day due to lack of developers.So … , if there are 7-10 guys out there who are willing to join our team
(me and Sphynx) until 1rst oct 2014 and spend their time for 3D modelling/ skinning
simple things at first, then towers, hangars, etc. later,
then I’ll continue my work on this project.Otherwise the community will fly above korean objects when a EU terrain will be available.
If the community don’t care then why should I care.
At the moment it seems we have tried to create something nice, … and failed.
Cheers,
LS viewcount:6598 -
It is very sad to read all of these.
I’m really sorry my good friend LS and thank you for your hard efforts all this time even if we had not any preview from this nice Europe theater.
A lot of times i have post in this forum that ALL the developers in every sector should work together in the same theater. The theaters could have a nice order via a poll thread for let’s say 1 (max. 2) months. This way we could have the best result, but….
I really don’t know what to say. I personally love my country and offer 2 great years of work into the Aegean theater with the Aegean team.
But if we had this nice poll, i give you my word that i wouldn’t had any problem to respect the needs of this forum and work for the first theater that was been.
I think that this is the main reason for the fact that we haven’t any other theater so complete after the default Korea…
Nikos. -
A good theater requires lot more other things than new 3D objects just ask A.S…
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If only I knew anything about modelling, I’d be there like a shot.
Keep the faith LS.