Europe Theater Discussion
-
Isn’t the Balkans a Europe theater? And hasn’t Nove done a lot with the buildings and 3D models? Couldn’t you guys ask to use his models as a starting point?
Shoot even Aegean… That’s two more theaters than any North American theater in existence, and there’s at least 2 versions of each of those theaters :D.
-
If we can “light the fire”, i can support you with the creation of the NavAids and their list, but due to the fact that there are there a very big amount of airports i will need some support for sure.
I already learned my friend Michael “NIL” how to do it, but i don’t know if he has time right now.
If the things go ahead, maybe i can find 1-2 guys to help me. I can give them some basic infos and lead and coordinate the work…
Let’s see IF the miracle can happen here, for a great Europe theater!
Nikos. -
Lazystone,
First off, I love you man. I don’t know you, but I know you work hard on Falcon for us all, so I love you for that.Second, what I’m going to say is going to piss you off. And I’m sorry in advance for that because it always sucks to hurt those that you love.
But…I think your approach to Europe (and for that matter theater creation in general) is 180 degrees out from where it needs to be. Let me explain:
I am not a newcomer to Falcon, but I had a significant break between when it came out and when I picked it back up this go around…would have been about 2007 or so with Freefalcon 4. It was during FF4 days that I discovered PMC and started flying Europe. I sat down at one point and started to systematically go through the PMC theaters to see if any “worked” and I did AARs for them. For Europe in particular, I think I flew something on the order of 30 missions before I stopped my AAR.
Even in that mediocre PMC Europe theater, and even with the shell of cockpits of things like the Phantom and Tornado, I had a heck of a lot of fun flying in Europe.
We all have different priorities as to what makes a fun theater in which to fly…what creates immersion. You look at what we have available to make a Europe theater and feel that it’s not enough. I look at it and feel that it’s sufficient.
Developing a theater, just using the stock terrain tiles, database, and skins, is a huge undertaking. Just doing Europe with what we have, if you didn’t create one new thing but used existing stuff, would take years. You start to add things like new skins, new models, new 3D objects, etc…and you send that development time to the unattainable. Unless you get the right group, and then it’s a maybe, and getting that right group is HARD as you know.
Visuals are important. I’m not saying they’re unimportant. But they’re almost the last thing in importance compared to gameplay. Create something with stock Korea tiles and buildings and objects, etc., but put towns where they belong and create a realistic order of battle, and when Qawa releases his magic new cockpits I think you understimate the awesomeness of that version of Europe.
I wish I could make you guys all understand the only way these theaters will ever get done is to keep the scope manageable. The Europe you’re discussing just isn’t possible…not unless you’re able to get a prototype out there and generate a critical mass of interest.
Maybe I just set the bar too low. You really don’t have much competition for these theaters outside of Thirdwire. So virtually anything you make will be “good.” So why swing for the bleachers right out the bat when a base hit is enough for your first at-bat?
Edit- just saw the picture above. That looks great. I don’t thing stuff like that is critical for a theater, though. Not saying I don’t want it…but I’m not going to fly a theater just because it looks pretty.
-
Desert terrains are better for our curent terrain engine… Until tree autogen comes with 4.Xx
Even korea feels weird because no jungle
IMHO
-
Couldn’t you guys ask to use his models as a starting point?
What for?
According to that logic, we could simply use stock Korean as well. Balkan is not Central Europe, Aegan is not Central Europe.@toonces So for you it’s enough to have a different map and different names in the UI and that makes a new theater for you?
-
Well u could get the models and change the textures to central europe.
-
Just a small note. Withot a reworked database the theater would be pointless because many AC and grounds units are simply not in DB and with available few battalions is impossible to build a usable OOB… Even you do not touch any modeling values which from my aspect is more than neccessary…
-
^ That’s an interesting statement from someone who’s sole working Korea 80’s campaign is a Fantasyland Eurowar campaign.
All I’m saying is that before you guys shoot for a moon landing, why not send a little capsule into orbit…see how it all works. Then build from there.
Anyway, I give up. I’ve got nothing invested in this idea, and clearly I’m in the minority in how to proceed. I wish you all luck. And I mean that sincerely. Next to Vietnam, this is the theater I most wish were made for Falcon 4.
-
It is very sad to read all of these.
Don’t worry, … life goes on, LOL.
A lot of times i have post in this forum that ALL the developers in every sector should work together in the same theater. The theaters could have a nice order via a poll thread for let’s say 1 (max. 2) months. This way we could have the best result, but….
Maybe you are right, but IMHO those “well known” devs fit
very nicely in the position they are right now.
… kind of natural selection.I really don’t know what to say. I personally love my country and offer 2 great years of work into the Aegean theater with the Aegean team.
But if we had this nice poll, i give you my word that i wouldn’t had any problem to respect the needs of this forum and work for the first theater that was been.
I think that this is the main reason for the fact that we haven’t any other theater so complete after the default Korea…
Nikos.No doubt, you would leave Aegean for the top theater of a poll,
but would you be really happy in that situation?A good theater requires lot more other things than new 3D objects just ask A.S…
IMHO A good theater requires lot more other things and new 3D objects.
And yes, even RL busy I do read those theater- and campaign- deving related posts,
even yours.No need to disturb A.S in his excellent work, at this moment.
If only I knew anything about modelling, I’d be there like a shot.
Keep the faith LS.
There r many tutorials and I’m sure Lazy can give u the guidelines to start.
Do u have the time? R u willing? this is the question.Exactly, this is the main question at all.
So Griffin, … How about your photoshop skills?
Well Lazy as I was a part of those guys that came and gone when I was in my early steps on 3ds max.
To tell u the truth I understand your frustration. On the other hand this project is vast.
One thing is well just 3-4 guys to create so many countries?
So u r done deal before u start.If everyone who joined us in the past 7 years would have done one simple model or two a month…
what other countries r in the theater Lazy?
Isn’t the Balkans a Europe theater? And hasn’t Nove done a lot with the buildings and 3D models? Couldn’t you guys ask to use his models as a starting point?
Nove is doing a really great job on Balkans.
We’ve got already permission to use his excellent work.If we can “light the fire”, i can support you with the creation of the NavAids and their list, but due to the fact that there are there a very big amount of airports i will need some support for sure.
Thank’s Nikos, I’ll tell you when we are in need of NavAids.
Lazystone,
First off, I love you man. I don’t know you, but I know you work hard on Falcon for us all, so I love you for that.Thank’s Mike, I love you too, haha.
@toonces:Second, …
You’re 100% right in what you’ve said, including the different priorities.
Our plan was not to create another PMC like Europe,
but to create something nice, … would need time and devs, modellers/skinner.What for?
According to that logic, we could simply use stock Korean as well. Balkan is not Central Europe, Aegan is not Central Europe.Tim, we can use Nove’s stuff for the Balkans part of the map.
@toonces So for you it’s enough to have a different map and different names in the UI and that makes a new theater for you?
Basicly he said, even using existing tiles, models, DB would be still lots of work but gets quicker result.
Such a ET would be good enough for him to have fun.… different priorities.
Well u could get the models and change the textures to central europe.
3D modelling houses, hangars, towers, etc. is not that time insive,
but texmapping and skinning is.Just a small note. Withot a reworked database the theater would be pointless because many AC and grounds units are simply not in DB and with available few battalions is impossible to build a usable OOB… Even you do not touch any modeling values which from my aspect is more than neccessary…
We would like to have more models before we start to touch any DB stuff,
but someday I may get back to you.All I’m saying is that before you guys shoot for a moon landing, why not send a little capsule into orbit…see how it all works. Then build from there.
That’s what we are doing, … just in a differently way.
We can already see in Balkans what “thinking outside the box” (tiling for example)
can make an improvement in BalkansAnyway, I give up. I’ve got nothing invested in this idea, and clearly I’m in the minority in how to proceed. I wish you all luck. And I mean that sincerely. Next to Vietnam, this is the theater I most wish were made for Falcon 4.
Lukas has a EU terrrain WIP and Molni has a 80’s cold war DB WIP, so…
would be nice to have a few 3D models for it, IMHO.Cheers,
LS -
So guys from England Italy Spain Norway Denmark can Help also on this project…
-
Thank’s Nikos, I’ll tell you when we are in need of NavAids.
Cheers,
LSYou can count on this my good friend.
When and if the time comes, give me a call, i will try to find a small team in order to have some help ;).
Take care.
Nikos. -
That’s an interesting statement from someone who’s sole working Korea 80’s campaign is a Fantasyland Eurowar campaign.
I do not understand this part. Even the map of Korea is different from Europe if you wish to model well a NATO vs WPact conflict the current DB is simply not suitable.
-
I do not understand this part. Even the map of Korea is different from Europe if you wish to model well a NATO vs WPact conflict the current DB is simply not suitable.
+1
-
Just for the record, how big would be this Eruope theater? Are we speaking about the same size as was the PMC Europe?
-
Just for the record, how big would be this Eruope theater? Are we speaking about the same size as was the PMC Europe?
-
I do not understand this part. Even the map of Korea is different from Europe if you wish to model well a NATO vs WPact conflict the current DB is simply not suitable.
Molni,
What I am saying is that you are able to be “unrealistic” when you want to, as demonstrated by your Eurowar campaign in your 80’s mod. I don’t mean to take anything away from your work on your 80’s mod because I think it’s fantastic. But clearly even you can suspend belief when required.You guys keep focusing on the shortcomings to making a Europe theater and I keep saying just do the best with what you have! I certainly appreciate attention to detail. On the other hand, a lot of the stuff you all get hung up on will be completely missed by the majority of your audience (in my opinion).
We’re playing a computer game. Fundamentally, everything in it is a compromise of realism. Stop dwelling on every tiny shortcoming and think bigger picture here.
Just my opinion, of course.
-
What I am saying is that you are able to be “unrealistic” when you want to, as demonstrated by your Eurowar campaign in your 80’s mod.
Of course the battalion system forces you to make big compromises in battalion roster creation but you can make far better battalion rosters are in stock DB. They are more than weak…
The main point is create functional battalion with specific role and model the RL AD/combat unit ratio and capability to self defence capability against air and helos. The current DB is simply not doing this…
-
central Europe theater would be great
-
Pretty sure it won’t happen.
So far there has been “overwhelming interest” in helping us, which will be the reason we’ll close it down in ~2 weeks (unless something different happens in this time of course). -
“overwhelming interest”
If nobody have the neccesary skills… The only thing where I could help imporving the DB and nothing else. Only problem this is one of the last step to creating a good theater…