Mid-Air Collision
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A very near miss proved an effective lesson in keeping my head out of the pit
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Happened to me a couple of months ago. It was night and I had just received a clear picture from AWACS. Then all of a sudden, BOOM! The good newsā¦got credit for the kill!!!
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takes real talent to collide in all that sky
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@Cik:
takes real talent to collide in all that sky
You think.
IRL, econfliction IS THE biggest part of operation and COMAO planning.
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During combat operations, formation take offās and landings is a no no. At take off, fly out with burners and steady climb rate out to about 3,000 ft. Perform a mild 30* pull/turn on to your next steer point. Your wingy should be in trail at this point. Then set up your climb to combat altitude and back off that burner. Your wingy will play catch up. If your flying online, this should be a common practice. When landing, the ATC should marshal you to a proper āinitialsā point at the inner marker. Keep your eye open for any cross traffic that might appear during your final. If your AI wingy is still in formation, command it to RTB. The ATC should start to marshal your wingy. This should leave you free and clear on the approach. As for landing online, landing in formation is again a no no in combat. But, if your just having fun, then be prepared to have misshaps from time to time.
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During combat operations, formation take offās and landings is a no no. (ā¦.) As for landing online, landing in formation is again a no no in combat. But, if your just having fun, then be prepared to have misshaps from time to time.
My poor internet did teach this lesson rather fast. Thereās a good reason why not to do it- but it looks real cool
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My poor internet did teach this lesson rather fast. Thereās a good reason why not to do it- but it looks real cool
Never said it didnāt look cool!
With online squads, practice will keep the mishaps from popping up too much if you go for that sort of thing. But, if itās RL combat operations, NO FORMATION TAKE OFFās with live weapons. It will usually be 1 jet ramping up and taking off while the second jet spools and takes off shortly afterwards giving proper spacing.
If your having fun (which I like to fly most of the time in bms) then have at it. But, it wonāt do your log book much good per every mishap.
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Never said it didnāt look cool!
With online squads, practice will keep the mishaps from popping up too much if you go for that sort of thing. But, if itās RL combat operations, NO FORMATION TAKE OFFās with live weapons. It will usually be 1 jet ramping up and taking off while the second jet spools and takes off shortly afterwards giving proper spacing.
If your having fun (which I like to fly most of the time in bms) then have at it. But, it wonāt do your log book much good per every mishap.
Keeping a 10 seconds spacing with CAT I / MIL takeoff and 20 seconds spacing with CAT III / AB takeoff always worked fine. I did not complete one single formation takeoff yet- the first one some time ago ended up in a short lag (bad ping) followed by a large fireball. I did not ever try again. I can get on the boom during refueling in turns, but I wonāt do a formation takeoff again.
I do never fly close fingertip due to the same problemā¦Anyway, a 20 seconds spacing is not hard to catch up if lead limits his turns to 30Ā° bank and 250-300kts, 5Ā° pitch up until everybody rejoined.
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Keeping a 10 seconds spacing with CAT I / MIL takeoff and 20 seconds spacing with CAT III / AB takeoff always worked fine. I did not complete one single formation takeoff yet- the first one some time ago ended up in a short lag (bad ping) followed by a large fireball. I did not ever try again. I can get on the boom during refueling in turns, but I wonāt do a formation takeoff again.
I do never fly close fingertip due to the same problemā¦Anyway, a 20 seconds spacing is not hard to catch up if lead limits his turns to 30Ā° bank and 250-300kts, 5Ā° pitch up until everybody rejoined.
Yep,
Thatās good spacing. Unless your playing around with other VPās during missions, best to have good spacing.
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Iāve been trying to understand the AI better, for my own personal gains. Iāve currently got a 4 ship formation takeoff for a sweep mission. All 4 F-16C50 are loaded with AIM-120s, and the AI line up lead on the left of the runway, just ahead of the touchdown zone marker. Everybody files in sequence to the leads right, about 30 degrees from right. By the time #4 is lined up, it seems to not be able to. The takeoff spacing is (I counted it with the AA TACAN) by the time the guy infront of you is 0.6 from you down the runway, you light your candle. Thereās no 30 second pause for rotation vortecies from them.
@ jhook - If itās a āfriendlyā itās a mid-air, and if enemy - an expensive intercept.
-Babite -
i remember a squadmate crossing in front of me on the runway and taking me outā¦.
That was you???
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But, if itās RL combat operations, NO FORMATION TAKE OFFās with live weapons. It will usually be 1 jet ramping up and taking off while the second jet spools and takes off shortly afterwards giving proper spacing.
Formation takeoffs are ok with live ordnance IRL as long as they are forward firing only (i.e. missiles only A-A or A-G). Itās a 20 second interval if live ordnance that is not forward firing.
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so two nights ago im flying a sead strike, i am returning home to kunson AB. I contact the tower for permission to land i get the usual -you are no. 1 to land .im about 7-8 miles out heading straight for the runway and i see what looks like a c130 in front of me so i contact the tower again and i still get permission to land now i know there is not enough room for both of us on the runway so i throttle down as much as i can without falling out of the sky by this time i am close enough to read the numbers on the tail , all the while im still getting permission to land by this time thereās about 1\4 mile to touchdown so i climbed just above the c130 switched to satellite view and watched it land ā¦the tower told me to abort landing and go around .
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I almost had one last week. I was heads down, he came from my left out of my radars view. I looked up and he got so close that the entire screen was filled with his plane as he went by to the right. I told him that he almost hit me and he said that it must have been me that almost hit him. Uggg.
During refueling practice I was on the tankers right wing, high. After refueling, number 3 backed off from the tanker, went behind me and then went low. He came in under me and pulled up into my position and clipped me. We both were able to land still. We did more refueling practice sessions after that making sure everyone knew where they were supposed to be.
Some of my other favorites are landing at the same time from opposite ends of the runway and making a bombing run from opposite ends at the same target at the same altitude. The IDM is great for watching these kinds of things.
I used to think that the odds of a collision were really low but I have seen a lot of near misses and experienced some hits when procedures were not followed. And as much as I look around, sometimes I just donāt see them coming.
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Some of my other favorites are landing at the same time from opposite ends of the runway and making a bombing run from opposite ends at the same target at the same altitude. The IDM is great for watching these kinds of things.
??? You are looking for troubles!?! Please, do never fly real planes!!!
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??? You are looking for troubles!?! Please, do never fly real planes!!!
Not everyone that I fly with is as well trained as you guys. By the way, I am a big fan of your videos and writings.
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a c130 in front of me so i contact the tower again and i still get permission to land
Joys of AI ATC. All I can tell you is : respect the speed the ATC gives you, best way to ensure spacing.
When you are at the initial point (āturn to final approach course, slow to/check speed/check gear downā), and if you are not 5 min late/early, it will clear you to land during your approach, regardless of AI in the pattern.
-> potential fix for devs : do an āabort landingā if you arrive at the IP too late/too early and thereās an aircraft landing before/after you. Limit advance/delay should be half the typical time spacing between aircrafts.
AI is very good at respecting patterns, that shouldnt impact its behaviour. -
Iām probably going to disagree with you guys here. I have found it VERY hard to have a midair in BMS, even when Iām frustrated and TRYING. Iāve done the tanker mission so many times while trying to learn my sticks response to BMS that I had a couple of times where I have INTENTIONALLY flown into the fuselage just infront of the tail on the tanker and NOTHING HAPPENED. Once in a while I did manage to go kablooey, but that was rare. But on the runway for a formation takeoff Iāve gotten close enough to someone else that at first I thought it was a hot-brake issue, my jet would go kaBANG and shut down on the runway, even though I wasnāt touching anyone else - I had come in behind the flight leader as #2 and was trying to line up with the same spacing as everyone else - and my wingtip missile was in line with the leaders wingtip missile, but there was still ~1.5 meters /4 ft of room tip to motor. I got perma-shut-down (all systems off, even tail strobe) but the leader could still run off.
-Babite -
Iām probably going to disagree with you guys here. I have found it VERY hard to have a midair in BMS, even when Iām frustrated and TRYING. Iāve done the tanker mission so many times while trying to learn my sticks response to BMS that I had a couple of times where I have INTENTIONALLY flown into the fuselage just infront of the tail on the tanker and NOTHING HAPPENED. Once in a while I did manage to go kablooey, but that was rare. But on the runway for a formation takeoff Iāve gotten close enough to someone else that at first I thought it was a hot-brake issue, my jet would go kaBANG and shut down on the runway, even though I wasnāt touching anyone else - I had come in behind the flight leader as #2 and was trying to line up with the same spacing as everyone else - and my wingtip missile was in line with the leaders wingtip missile, but there was still ~1.5 meters /4 ft of room tip to motor. I got perma-shut-down (all systems off, even tail strobe) but the leader could still run off.
-BabiteThe collision area is very small with the tanker on purpose (there was talk about changing that to make it more sensitive) whereas the F-16 isnāt, which explains impacts on the runway, etcā¦