Missile evasion
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@mookar:
Yeah but there rarely is one bandit in a flight so coord with friendly assets is crucial ;). I agree though that the āshooting a missile to cover up your escapeā is a good tactic and at least keeps the fight nobodyās for some time (provided there is an equilibrium in friendly - foe numbers).
yeah. what i meant was youāre in a bad spot whether you weave or not. if you let him get offensive on you while youāre defensive youāre basically toast if he can keep chasing you. your only option at that point is to run, because if you turn in heāll kill you, and if you dive/climb heāll probably also kill you. why wingmen and good engages are essential in BVR. itās all target selection and engagement tactics.
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@mookar:
On a sidenote, the pro military sims indicate extremely high Pk of the adder shot at no other but the American āstealthā airplanes.
Basically the only sam systems one has more than 50% chance of evading are the oldest sams (SA2s, SA7s) and provided they do not employ any crazy ambushing techniquesWell, there are no real life experiences of how the adder performs in combat. I think it should be slightly higher than the AIM-120 and slightly less than the meteor. Iām not interested in producing real life numbers to see whoās right eitherā¦ Any weapon that does not need to be used is a good one.
However, sometimes you just donāt have the choice.The SA-2 / 3 / 4 /5 and 6 can be evaded even if the ambush you. Often, a vertical dive will give enough energy to outmaneuver the incoming missile(s) and to get out to the deck.
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if you let him get offensive on you while youāre defensive youāre basically toast if he can keep chasing you. your only option at that point is to run, because if you turn in heāll kill you, and if you dive/climb heāll probably also kill you. why wingmen and good engages are essential in BVR. itās all target selection and engagement tactics.
Yes exactly right.
Well, there are no real life experiences of how the adder performs in combat
Actually there are plenty of experience during weapon tests and evaluation but not in combat you are right about this one. Precise info has not been avail so far but it is known that the R77 climbs to altitude better (than at least the AIM120) due to heaps of lift āat the finsā. āNumber for numberā, āpound for poundā the R77 is pretty formidable!
Iām not interested in producing real life numbers to see whoās right either
Now this sounds interesting, are you involved in weapons tests or are you a pilot?
The SA-2 / 3 / 4 /5 and 6 can be evaded even if the ambush you
Iām not sure about this one but someone mentioned about the SAM missileās flight model and SAM operatorsā behavior not being entirely correct in BMS, they are pretty nasty in RL. An ambushing SAM is extremely dangerous! By ambushing I mean alternating āon airā mode, utilizing the different beams of the antenna itself, triangulating, integrating with other area defense assets The SA2 is very dangerous missile in RL, this comes from people that have been in a fight with them, they climb very fast and move very fast all 'round and yes they do āsmoke outā at some point making them tough to spot!
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All tactics above are good :
Old SAMs (up til SA-6) : chaff, put it on the beam, then 9g turn on it. Be at 400 KIAS min. Only pb is : you dont get away from the launcher.
Use the ECM at your advantage : if you can jam it then get away, do it ! Old SAM are very vulnerable to it, except maybe SA-6.SHORADs : flares and get the hell out. Or dont enter threat ring. No way to escape them kinematically with good confidence, these are nearly impossible to spot.
SA-10 : dont get fired atā¦ Or use terrain masking to break Flap Lid lock. Otherwise you are dead.
SA-11, 15, and 17 : Dont get fired atā¦ Dont enter threat ring, or, for SA-15, stay above 18000 ft.
I found that if you can spot the missile, putting it on the beam while being at 550+ KIAS, then 9g turn into it at the good moment (stop your turn when youāve done a full 180) will defeat the missile.
BUT : If thereās a second missile right after the first, or you spotted the first a bit late, you are dead. So use with caution.AA : SARH : break launcher lock : beam, jam, chaffs. Thats the best bet. If you are being shot at from your 6, jam and burn. From your 12 : jam, if the lock is maintained, get some energy then beam away and chaff.
ARH : Turn and burnā¦ if you do an evasive only when you spot it on the RWR, you are dead. If you know youāre being shot at, but the missile isnt active yet, break lock (see above) and change direction and alt. If you know the bandit will go defensive (because you or your friends already fired), you can stay hot. But if you have the slightest doubt that the bandit can maintain lock or that the missile will go active on you anyway, turn and burn.
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@mookar:
This āweavingā bleeds the missile and it bleeds you as well, and meakes you easy target for follow on shot especially when going āup and over the missileā and especially when the bandits coordinate well their doings.
Yes and no.
You donāt weave, weave, weave ā¦ you weave, stabilize (and build speed), weave, stabilize. You have to give the missile time to change track so it has to max turn when you turn. It doesnāt take long. Also, after a while, you get a feel for when youāve bled energy off the missile ā¦ having to do with how far off the bandit was when he shot, etc. You get fād on the āturn and runā tactic when you let the bandit WAY too close before he shoots at you ā¦ you shouldāve shot HIM already and heād be cold instead of pressing in on you.
Yes on the second ā¦ assuming youāre still being chased, you donāt have mutual support and/or you donāt have element support. IOW - if youāre on your own and you donāt know where the bandits are, if their engaged or if their dead ā¦ keep running ā¦ see you in the O-Club.
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I have seen cockpit ālaunchā warnings at times; when specifically does that happen? I ask because it does not happen alot. Sometimes I find out a R77 is tracking me only when it goes pitbull and other times I get missile launch warning(sam?) in rwr. In training with labels on I see that the reds will launch them often and turn in a maddog move and if friend or foe is about 8 miles in front of it uh-ohā¦
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you should never get a launch warning from an adder. that is the āmissile launchā button on the left should NEVER activate, because like the AMRAAM it can fire with softlock. you may occasionally get a āspikeā that is the hardlock tone from a MIG-29, and sometimes that will correlate with them firing on you, just beware that they donāt HAVE to spike you to fire. just they will. sometimes. for some reason.
if you are getting a launch warning (button illuminated and spike tone) from a SU-27/SU-30, what youāre getting shot by is an AA-10C alamo, a long range SARH missile that they sometimes carry in lieu of the adder.
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@Cik:
you should never get a launch warning from an adder. that is the āmissile launchā button on the left should NEVER activate, because like the AMRAAM it can fire with softlock. you may occasionally get a āspikeā that is the hardlock tone from a MIG-29, and sometimes that will correlate with them firing on you, just beware that they donāt HAVE to spike you to fire. just they will. sometimes. for some reason.
if you are getting a launch warning (button illuminated and spike tone) from a SU-27/SU-30, what youāre getting shot by is an AA-10C alamo, a long range SARH missile that they sometimes carry in lieu of the adder.
IRL, Launch warning is not only triggered (or even never) by a hard lock, but by detecting the missile up link signal or by detecting the short radar signal chance preceding the missile launchā¦ There is no absolute rules here.
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If a launch is detected but the missile is not in view, the pilot should jink as quickly as possible and in any direction.
If the pilot sees the missile he should jink in a plane perpendicular to the line-of-sight vector and time the last switch to occur about one .second before impact.
If the missile is already one second from impact when first seen a maximum g turn perpendicular to the line-of sight vector should be done immediately. -
If a launch is detected but the missile is not in view, the pilot should jink as quickly as possible and in any direction.
If the pilot sees the missile he should jink in a plane perpendicular to the line-of-sight vector and time the last switch to occur about one .second before impact.
If the missile is already one second from impact when first seen a maximum g turn perpendicular to the line-of sight vector should be done immediately.Iām not sure how suitable it is to employ complicated procedures, especially when it comes to evasion, the whole ābreak into the missileā technique is an extremely shaky affair! Someone stated that it worked solely in BMS (exploiting the algorythms of the missile simulation). In RL you very rarely see the missile even if itās a SAM, let alone pick the exact time to initiate the meneuver, it should be noted that you see smoke from them which is not present by the time a medium range AA shot hits home.
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If fired at by an AIM-9X at close range the proper technique is to explode.
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If fired at by an AIM-9X at close range the proper technique is to explode.
:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D
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@mookar:
Iām not sure how suitable it is to employ complicated procedures, especially when it comes to evasion, the whole ābreak into the missileā technique is an extremely shaky affair! Someone stated that it worked solely in BMS (exploiting the algorythms of the missile simulation). In RL you very rarely see the missile even if itās a SAM, let alone pick the exact time to initiate the meneuver, it should be noted that you see smoke from them which is not present by the time a medium range AA shot hits home.
AA missiles will be smokeless by the time they are anywhere near you unless they are fired at point blank range, which, by the way is when people are suggesting breaking into an AA missile. at anything past point-blank itās better to turn and run almost always.
there is no reason it wouldnāt work in real life; most missiles where itās recommended (alamo, apex) are built for long range with relatively poor seekerheads, meaning their agility and seeking is subpar. sudden movement will disrupt the seeking as well as get outside the performance ability of the missile, especially if close.
itās mostly impossible with more agile missiles like the adder and various heats, though with heaters it sometimes works (usually only on AA-2s though, with notoriously poor seeking)
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when you hear archer inbound youāre toast
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nah. archer is surekill at itās medium range, but at very close range you will sometimes survive archer shots, ditto at long range as long as you are neutral/cold to the missile.
i survived 2X archer today in a dogfight, not impossible just unlikely.
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well I know a guy who once shot his wingman down with a harmā¦
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*** Best evasion technique ever: STAY OUT OF THE AIR ***
If you worry about not getting back home, donāt go out to begin with. Remember your fighterpilot mentality is supposed to be that NOTHING WILL GET ME, EVER. And remember that you can and should fire a missile at your enemy too. If you see it on the RWR, assume it allready saw you. Better yet, believe itās tracking you for a shot. The -120 has been working for me in a tail shot from <5NM. (I think, I still canāt determine which units are being used). From the nose quarter within 10NM has been within range for a half decent chance. But Iām determining that against IA ILs and TUs for the nose to beam, and MiGs 19 & 21 for rear end shots while they are on the burner. Iāve been trying to do more strict flights towards learning my stick to bird connection, so my AI-targeting data has taken a backseat.For a SAM site - if you SEE IT LAUNCH from the ground, you have a chance of evading. Same for the air. Seeing the missile from head on makes it VERY HARD to watch. What range is it now? If you can make out side details, itās TOO CLOSE.
-Babite
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@mookar:
Iām not sure how suitable it is to employ complicated procedures, especially when it comes to evasion, the whole ābreak into the missileā technique is an extremely shaky affair! Someone stated that it worked solely in BMS (exploiting the algorythms of the missile simulation). In RL you very rarely see the missile even if itās a SAM, let alone pick the exact time to initiate the meneuver, it should be noted that you see smoke from them which is not present by the time a medium range AA shot hits home.
Historically speaking plenty of pilots have spotted SAMs. They didnt call them flying telegraph poles for no reasonā¦
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Historically speaking plenty of pilots have spotted SAMs. They didnt call them flying telegraph poles for no reasonā¦
I was not referring to the SAMs but to the AA missiles but yeah ābeamingā is good for poor tracking SAMs I agree. Historically speaking many pilotsāve been hit by SAMs to.;)