Europe Theater Discussion
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rest in peace.
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Sorry, if I sound rude - I’m just pretty frustrated.
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… whereat “I’m just pretty frustrated” is quite an understatement
to describe my mood.@ Dee-Jay and biker
the ETG project is not a new project. In fact it has been started many years ago.Ask the BMS folks what happend regarding this project and why it happend,
… they can tell you a nice story for sure.@All
Some of you may know me as a small community modder from back in the BMS 2.0/OF days,
where all addon theaters have been early beta, without working campaigns,
… only korean buildings (DB), etc.And hell, I was flying those betas for 10 years, … and was disappointed
regarding working campaign and still korean buildings with each release,
again and again.At that point (Aug 04, 2007) I’ve been recruited (beside 5-6 other guys) by a good (BMS) lad
for modelling/skinning for the ETG (Europe Theater Group) where “Sphynx” was and still is the teamleader.Soon after, another huge well known team recruited also, AND they had a really good beta to fly with.
Next all the 5-6 other guys disappeared quickly for several reasons.Left over was “Sphynx” and me. … now what? working for both groups wasn’t possible
and if I’ve left ETG at that time, the ET project would have been dead with a mouseclick or two for sure.BUT if we could recruit fresh guys, then we could build a team with at least 5- 10 modellers,
to create europe looking generic buildings, landmarks, specific airbase buildings like towers, etc.I mean, HELL it’s for an europe theater, … why should those who can modell and skin simple buildings
or more not be willing to work on such a project?So beside modelling I’ve started to recruit modellers and skinners, and yes there have been a few,
who are able and willing to spend their time, … but not at the same time and not for long
… for several reasons. So we have been never more than 3-4 members at any time.And NO ONE of them finished a simple f…ing box!
Huh??? create a box in 3DSMAX, delete bottom faces/ polys because they will never be seen insim,
then texmap it and create a nice europe looking texture for it shouldn’t be that hard.With a few mouseclicks more, some could even model a simple but good looking house. … imagine.
Yes, creating many 3D buildings for a ET is a huge workload and time consuming.
And yes, it’s pure 3D modelling, …but isn’t that what 3D modellers do?Hmmm, … maybe if we had a beta terrain to fly, then poeple would be more interrested
and stay for longer.
So I started to read into old forums, listen to terrain gurus on the BMS forums closely
and created a basic 64 segmented EU terrain, but noticed that the alps have been cutted which looked
terrible.
Next I’ve created a basic 128 seg. terrain, but noticed that to get there where “Lukas”
aready is would take me many years, so I’ve stopped terrain stuff to go back to 3D modelling.BUT I’ve learned alot about terrain creation during that time,
and in contray I’ve spotted many mismatches and limitations within the terrain engine
and the available tools for terrain creation.Yes, you can create a terrain which “could” look like europe,
BUT you can’t “model” it.Hey that pyramid is the “Zugpitze” in the alps, … looks great, … WOW :nosep:
Europe is full of landmarks, with roads near huge/small/med. rivers,
highways, country roads, country lanes, railways, tight valeys, etc.
where an aircraft should fly over nicely looking 3D cities/towns/buildings,
instead of flying over just a few pixels on the tiles.Anyway, in that period a few fresh guys joned us and disappeared … for several reasons.
Once again, we have been never more that 3-4 members at any time.And NO ONE of them finished a simple f…ing box!
While even I was bored with modelling 3D buildings alone, I took a break and 3D modelled my
very first aircraft which will be usefull in a ET.
todo:- propeller animation (waiting for BMS 4.33)
- lower LODs
- more skinsets
- .dat (uses modified standard .dat atm.)
And yes I flew that AC in the 128 seg. terrain I’ve created.
Anyway, … who should be motivated if there is noone creating 3D modells beside LS?
So I’ve created a few basic 3D modelling video tutorials, which will allow
even beginners to 3D model nice stuff.Additionally I’ve tried to recruit as much as possible in a short period of time
and told them the huge workload and that I’m searching for guys with “balls”
who are willing to spend their time on that longtiime project.
… pure 3D modelling, … no beta to fly with.And there was really a period (not that far) where we have been 6-7 members
at the same time, … all of them full of enthusiastic, with video tutorials available, …And again, … NO ONE of them finished a simple f…ing box!
WTF…Actually I’m heavy RL busy until let’s say end of september, so I’ve stopped working on ET project,
which results in no new posts in our forum and it looks like spamm bots are trying to get their hands on it.While looking at the view count of this thread it seems there is much interest
by the community in flying an EU cold war theater, but at the same time noone is willing to spend their
time and efforts on such a project.For one guy alone (me) it’s way to much work to get it done or even to get it nearly done,
and I will not spend the rest of my life modelling for a theater which will
probably never see the light of the day due to lack of developers.So … , if there are 7-10 guys out there who are willing to join our team
(me and Sphynx) until 1rst oct 2014 and spend their time for 3D modelling/ skinning
simple things at first, then towers, hangars, etc. later,
then I’ll continue my work on this project.Otherwise the community will fly above korean objects when a EU terrain will be available.
If the community don’t care then why should I care.
At the moment it seems we have tried to create something nice, … and failed.
Cheers,
LS viewcount:6598 -
It is very sad to read all of these.
I’m really sorry my good friend LS and thank you for your hard efforts all this time even if we had not any preview from this nice Europe theater.
A lot of times i have post in this forum that ALL the developers in every sector should work together in the same theater. The theaters could have a nice order via a poll thread for let’s say 1 (max. 2) months. This way we could have the best result, but….
I really don’t know what to say. I personally love my country and offer 2 great years of work into the Aegean theater with the Aegean team.
But if we had this nice poll, i give you my word that i wouldn’t had any problem to respect the needs of this forum and work for the first theater that was been.
I think that this is the main reason for the fact that we haven’t any other theater so complete after the default Korea…
Nikos. -
A good theater requires lot more other things than new 3D objects just ask A.S…
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If only I knew anything about modelling, I’d be there like a shot.
Keep the faith LS.
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Well Lazy as I was a part of those guys that came and gone when I was in my early steps on 3ds max.
To tell u the truth I understand your frustration. On the other hand this project is vast.
One thing is well just 3-4 guys to create so many countries?
So u r done deal before u start.The biggest disappointment is that there are many many guys here from Europe with good and powerful virtual squads.
Don’t u guys want to fly over your country?
Also u have, and If not, I’m sure u can find more easily per country details that would help building up this theater.Some guys where working on Poland IIRC so one country can be helped from those guys that IIRC did a good job.
So come on from those squads aren’t there any guys willing to help on this project?
Let me dig up and the vsquads thread…
England?
German (5 squads so 2 guys per squad…)
Virtuelle Jagdstaffel 161 - UTC+1 - Recruiting
1st Glory Wings VFW - UTC+1 - Recruiting
47th VFS “Dragon Fighters” - UTC+1 - Recruiting
49TH Black Diamonds - UTC+1 - Recruiting
121st VFS Grim Griffins - UTC+2 - RecruitingFrench (10 squads so one person from every squad will be more then enough)
BadBirds - UTC+1
Cellules Rapaces - UTC+1 - Recruiting
Escadron de Chasse 05.025 « Mousquetaires » GMT +1 - Recruiting
VFAF Buzzards - UTC+1 - Recruiting
1st FFW “Mud Movers” - UTC+1 - Unknown if recruiting
3rdFFW “Crécerelles” - UTC+1 - Unknown if recruiting
5thFFW “Storm Riders” - UTC+1 - Unknown if recruiting
8thFFW “Dragons” - UTC+1 - Not recruiting
9thWTAC “Griffons” - UTC+1 - Recruiting
The Last Dragons - UTC+2 - RecruitingBelgium?
Holland?
Austria?Polish (2 squads so 2 persons per squad)
13 Wirtualna Eskadra Lotnictwa Taktycznego - UTC+1 - Recruiting
16th VTFS Stormriders - UTC+1 - RecruitingSwedish (1 squad so 2-4 persons)
Master Arms - UTC+1 - Recruitingwhat other countries r in the theater Lazy?
Come on guys cooperate…
So how many and which from those squads will help? Any other squads not mentioned here?
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If only I knew anything about modelling, I’d be there like a shot.
Keep the faith LS.
There r many tutorials and I’m sure Lazy can give u the guidelines to start.
Do u have the time? R u willing? this is the question. -
So how many and which from those squads will help? Any other squads not mentioned here?
We’d be ready and happy to help about any available information or request concerning the French territory in this theater (airbases, VORTACs, airspaces etc, most stuff in Dj’s post below ⇊).
Concerning the technical part, I’m new on the matter so I’ll keep you updated if someway I am able to help (I should be able to build a box (as you say) in 3DS Max in a couple of months I hope/guess :mrgreen:). -
French territory in this theater (airbases, VORTACs, airspaces etc)
http://www.dircam.air.defense.gouv.fr/dia/images/stories/Doc/CAM6_RECTO.pdf
http://www.dircam.air.defense.gouv.fr/dia/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=822&Itemid=381
http://www.dircam.air.defense.gouv.fr/dia/images/stories/Doc/ENR_FASCICULE_3volets.pdf
…
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Yes Deejay that was one of the thing I was thinking about. This is somehow my point, I mean this is “easy” help but it’s still help. And a non-French (even more a non-military navigant personnel) would not especially have the reflex to go on there.
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Yes Deejay that was one of the thing I was thinking about. This is somehow my point, I mean this is “easy” help but it’s still help. And a non-French (even more a non-military navigant personnel) would not especially have the reflex to go on there.
Exactly … and not always easy to find official countries website featuring such info.
i.e. … I do not know for Spain.
EDIT: maybe here : http://www.aena.es/csee/Satellite/navegacion-aerea/en/Page/1078418725153//ENR-En-route.html
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Isn’t the Balkans a Europe theater? And hasn’t Nove done a lot with the buildings and 3D models? Couldn’t you guys ask to use his models as a starting point?
Shoot even Aegean… That’s two more theaters than any North American theater in existence, and there’s at least 2 versions of each of those theaters :D.
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If we can “light the fire”, i can support you with the creation of the NavAids and their list, but due to the fact that there are there a very big amount of airports i will need some support for sure.
I already learned my friend Michael “NIL” how to do it, but i don’t know if he has time right now.
If the things go ahead, maybe i can find 1-2 guys to help me. I can give them some basic infos and lead and coordinate the work…
Let’s see IF the miracle can happen here, for a great Europe theater!
Nikos. -
Lazystone,
First off, I love you man. I don’t know you, but I know you work hard on Falcon for us all, so I love you for that.Second, what I’m going to say is going to piss you off. And I’m sorry in advance for that because it always sucks to hurt those that you love.
But…I think your approach to Europe (and for that matter theater creation in general) is 180 degrees out from where it needs to be. Let me explain:
I am not a newcomer to Falcon, but I had a significant break between when it came out and when I picked it back up this go around…would have been about 2007 or so with Freefalcon 4. It was during FF4 days that I discovered PMC and started flying Europe. I sat down at one point and started to systematically go through the PMC theaters to see if any “worked” and I did AARs for them. For Europe in particular, I think I flew something on the order of 30 missions before I stopped my AAR.
Even in that mediocre PMC Europe theater, and even with the shell of cockpits of things like the Phantom and Tornado, I had a heck of a lot of fun flying in Europe.
We all have different priorities as to what makes a fun theater in which to fly…what creates immersion. You look at what we have available to make a Europe theater and feel that it’s not enough. I look at it and feel that it’s sufficient.
Developing a theater, just using the stock terrain tiles, database, and skins, is a huge undertaking. Just doing Europe with what we have, if you didn’t create one new thing but used existing stuff, would take years. You start to add things like new skins, new models, new 3D objects, etc…and you send that development time to the unattainable. Unless you get the right group, and then it’s a maybe, and getting that right group is HARD as you know.
Visuals are important. I’m not saying they’re unimportant. But they’re almost the last thing in importance compared to gameplay. Create something with stock Korea tiles and buildings and objects, etc., but put towns where they belong and create a realistic order of battle, and when Qawa releases his magic new cockpits I think you understimate the awesomeness of that version of Europe.
I wish I could make you guys all understand the only way these theaters will ever get done is to keep the scope manageable. The Europe you’re discussing just isn’t possible…not unless you’re able to get a prototype out there and generate a critical mass of interest.
Maybe I just set the bar too low. You really don’t have much competition for these theaters outside of Thirdwire. So virtually anything you make will be “good.” So why swing for the bleachers right out the bat when a base hit is enough for your first at-bat?
Edit- just saw the picture above. That looks great. I don’t thing stuff like that is critical for a theater, though. Not saying I don’t want it…but I’m not going to fly a theater just because it looks pretty.
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Desert terrains are better for our curent terrain engine… Until tree autogen comes with 4.Xx
Even korea feels weird because no jungle
IMHO
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Couldn’t you guys ask to use his models as a starting point?
What for?
According to that logic, we could simply use stock Korean as well. Balkan is not Central Europe, Aegan is not Central Europe.@toonces So for you it’s enough to have a different map and different names in the UI and that makes a new theater for you?
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Well u could get the models and change the textures to central europe.
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Just a small note. Withot a reworked database the theater would be pointless because many AC and grounds units are simply not in DB and with available few battalions is impossible to build a usable OOB… Even you do not touch any modeling values which from my aspect is more than neccessary…
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^ That’s an interesting statement from someone who’s sole working Korea 80’s campaign is a Fantasyland Eurowar campaign.
All I’m saying is that before you guys shoot for a moon landing, why not send a little capsule into orbit…see how it all works. Then build from there.
Anyway, I give up. I’ve got nothing invested in this idea, and clearly I’m in the minority in how to proceed. I wish you all luck. And I mean that sincerely. Next to Vietnam, this is the theater I most wish were made for Falcon 4.
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It is very sad to read all of these.
Don’t worry, … life goes on, LOL.
A lot of times i have post in this forum that ALL the developers in every sector should work together in the same theater. The theaters could have a nice order via a poll thread for let’s say 1 (max. 2) months. This way we could have the best result, but….
Maybe you are right, but IMHO those “well known” devs fit
very nicely in the position they are right now.
… kind of natural selection.I really don’t know what to say. I personally love my country and offer 2 great years of work into the Aegean theater with the Aegean team.
But if we had this nice poll, i give you my word that i wouldn’t had any problem to respect the needs of this forum and work for the first theater that was been.
I think that this is the main reason for the fact that we haven’t any other theater so complete after the default Korea…
Nikos.No doubt, you would leave Aegean for the top theater of a poll,
but would you be really happy in that situation?A good theater requires lot more other things than new 3D objects just ask A.S…
IMHO A good theater requires lot more other things and new 3D objects.
And yes, even RL busy I do read those theater- and campaign- deving related posts,
even yours.No need to disturb A.S in his excellent work, at this moment.
If only I knew anything about modelling, I’d be there like a shot.
Keep the faith LS.
There r many tutorials and I’m sure Lazy can give u the guidelines to start.
Do u have the time? R u willing? this is the question.Exactly, this is the main question at all.
So Griffin, … How about your photoshop skills?
Well Lazy as I was a part of those guys that came and gone when I was in my early steps on 3ds max.
To tell u the truth I understand your frustration. On the other hand this project is vast.
One thing is well just 3-4 guys to create so many countries?
So u r done deal before u start.If everyone who joined us in the past 7 years would have done one simple model or two a month…
what other countries r in the theater Lazy?
Isn’t the Balkans a Europe theater? And hasn’t Nove done a lot with the buildings and 3D models? Couldn’t you guys ask to use his models as a starting point?
Nove is doing a really great job on Balkans.
We’ve got already permission to use his excellent work.If we can “light the fire”, i can support you with the creation of the NavAids and their list, but due to the fact that there are there a very big amount of airports i will need some support for sure.
Thank’s Nikos, I’ll tell you when we are in need of NavAids.
Lazystone,
First off, I love you man. I don’t know you, but I know you work hard on Falcon for us all, so I love you for that.Thank’s Mike, I love you too, haha.
@toonces:Second, …
You’re 100% right in what you’ve said, including the different priorities.
Our plan was not to create another PMC like Europe,
but to create something nice, … would need time and devs, modellers/skinner.What for?
According to that logic, we could simply use stock Korean as well. Balkan is not Central Europe, Aegan is not Central Europe.Tim, we can use Nove’s stuff for the Balkans part of the map.
@toonces So for you it’s enough to have a different map and different names in the UI and that makes a new theater for you?
Basicly he said, even using existing tiles, models, DB would be still lots of work but gets quicker result.
Such a ET would be good enough for him to have fun.… different priorities.
Well u could get the models and change the textures to central europe.
3D modelling houses, hangars, towers, etc. is not that time insive,
but texmapping and skinning is.Just a small note. Withot a reworked database the theater would be pointless because many AC and grounds units are simply not in DB and with available few battalions is impossible to build a usable OOB… Even you do not touch any modeling values which from my aspect is more than neccessary…
We would like to have more models before we start to touch any DB stuff,
but someday I may get back to you.All I’m saying is that before you guys shoot for a moon landing, why not send a little capsule into orbit…see how it all works. Then build from there.
That’s what we are doing, … just in a differently way.
We can already see in Balkans what “thinking outside the box” (tiling for example)
can make an improvement in BalkansAnyway, I give up. I’ve got nothing invested in this idea, and clearly I’m in the minority in how to proceed. I wish you all luck. And I mean that sincerely. Next to Vietnam, this is the theater I most wish were made for Falcon 4.
Lukas has a EU terrrain WIP and Molni has a 80’s cold war DB WIP, so…
would be nice to have a few 3D models for it, IMHO.Cheers,
LS