Proved effects of low level & silent human flight on observability by A.I. in BMS?
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well, Ive dedicated a lot of time during campaigns to attacking radar sites. Ive always thought the AI seemed less likely to notice us when flying low level in an area without radar coverage… but Ive not done any testing specifically to check that.
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Would low level human flight be less observable by (hostile) A.I.? Would a silent flight (FCR-off, ECM-off) additionally contribute to the total reduction of observability?
Yes, certainly it would, in the context of ‘less number of eyes are looking at you’, so a broad variety of enemy assets is less likely to converge on your location in a timely manner Radars in an integrated air defense network give clear picture for all assets and coordination is relatively easy.
On what factors would one base the choice for low level/silent flight in favor of high altitude flight?
Threats basically. If you have or expect MANPADS or/and SHORADS or/and SA10-type of threats (SA12, SA20, SA21) low level is the only feasible option. The modern battle areas are riddled with MANPADS (relatively cheap and remarkably easy to use) so low level flight is not even on the options list NOE (or at least masking flight) is suitable when attacking or defending a high threat SAM system, the rest of the time med to high alt is the way to go (more options when jumped/launched upon etc.).
How would one weigh with greater certainty the disadvantages against the advantages of low level/silent flight in order to better estimate chance on mission success?
When SEAD-ing SA10s - NOE ingress, pop up, launch, NOE egress. Same for ship strikes on high threat vessels. The disadvantage of this tactic is the vulnerability during the ingress and egress from SHORADS guarding the ‘main’ SAM and during the pop up from both the SHORADS and the ‘main’ SAM.
The other application of low level flight is when doing a pop up attack on a tgt, same deal here with the MANPADS - way too sneaky to intel and pinpoint, big risk with this approach as well. -
I try to remember a test me and a friend did on this a long time ago. We did it online with one in ui map and the other one flying on enemy side.
Did the low level flight work? Well, iirc not as good so it’s worth doing it.
It seemed like once you were spotted it was almost impossible to disappear again.
But this was 2 years ago.Cheers
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well, clearly the solution is not being spotted in the first place!
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I try to remember a test me and a friend did on this a long time ago. We did it online with one in ui map and the other one flying on enemy side.
Did the low level flight work? Well, iirc not as good so it’s worth doing it.
It seemed like once you were spotted it was almost impossible to disappear again.
But this was 2 years ago.Cheers
well, clearly the solution is not being spotted in the first place!
I kind of agree…
If you are spotted IRL, the enemy knows you are around here and will employ means to track you, corroborate visual reports with intermittent radar spots, look for comms, etc…
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The question would then be if you are visually spotted in BMS, are your position being updated every second with precision? A visual report would take more than a second to update IRL.
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One time I flew with my AI leader against 4 Su27.
When I saw it first on the RWR I was going down hit the deck, turned radar off (ecm was already off) and speed up.
Soon, my Leader (I think he was 210’) went defensive. I got the two offensive su, chased the other two for a short time and then we went home.
As I was almost totally under them, almost being able looking up their skirt, I’d say it is possible to be sneaky. -
Ever heard of electronic warfare ?
What makes you think the enemy don’t have RWR ?
Unless some developer note proofs the opposite, I don’t believe that AI (especially not ground or sam units and also no GCI) uses RWR to detect you beyond the reaction of AI aircraft when directly being spiked (from being locked on).
Thus I dont think switching the radar off adds any benefit to a low profile. it just degrades own SA while enemy still uses all available sensors to find you.
Greets
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Unless some developer note proofs the opposite, I don’t believe that AI (especially not ground or sam units and also no GCI) uses RWR to detect you beyond the reaction of AI aircraft when directly being spiked (from being locked on).
Thus I dont think switching the radar off adds any benefit to a low profile. it just degrades own SA while enemy still uses all available sensors to find you.
Greets
Well the RP5 manual suggests that enemy aircraft use their RWR to detect your radar emissions.
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If reaction time of SAMs were more longer - as in RL - it would be more worth to fly at low.
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If reaction time of SAMs were more longer - as in RL - it would be more worth to fly at low.
In RL 2S6 Tunguska reacts in 8 seconds, SA10 - in 10 sec (firing solution for around 6 targets with two missiles on each :D), SA2 and the like - ~15-20 sec, I’d sya that’s mostly way faster than in BMS
All in all the common SAM formations’ tactic was and probably is for the ‘big boys’ to get you down low with the SHORADS which are a lot more dangerous most of the times. -
Only if the crew are paying attention.
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@mookar:
In RL 2S6 Tunguska reacts in 8 seconds, SA10 - in 10 sec (firing solution for around 6 targets with two missiles on each :D), SA2 and the like - ~15-20 sec, I’d sya that’s mostly way faster than in BMS
All in all the common SAM formations’ tactic was and probably is for the ‘big boys’ to get you down low with the SHORADS which are a lot more dangerous most of the times.According to data from SAMsim guys these are sci-fi values… For all older classic Cold War SAMs from the first detection to launch 25-30 sec in the min with skilled crew…
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According to data from SAMsim guys these are sci-fi values… For all older classic Cold War SAMs from the first detection to launch 25-30 sec in the min with skilled crew…
http://www.airbase.ru/hangar/weapons/russia/sa/tunguska/
http://www.airbase.ru/hangar/weapons/russia/sa/tunguska/
^^^Two places it says 6-8 sec for the 2S6 (written in russian)
http://www.military-today.com/artillery/2s6_tunguska.htm
^^^‘Around 10 secs’ source (english).
I don’t know how ‘serious’ these sources are for you, probably not a lot, most of them aren’t, but anyway…
For the SA2 it’s around 30 sec - I correct myself
The fastest SHORADS are in the neighborhood of 5 sec (Thor SAM) from radar contact to shot! -
So from radar contact to identify it as hostile and fire, it’s 8 seconds?
Can that really be true? -
So from radar contact to identify it as hostile and fire, it’s 8 seconds?
Can that really be true?With a SHORAD, you can VID easily
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A ac going 480kts at tree top, you’ll have to be at a really good spot to pull that one off IMO. Every second the ac is 250m elsewhere. It’s like, hello…goodbye…, unless you are in a desert perhaps.
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definitely; lock them up and they react
@Blu3wolf:Well the RP5 manual suggests that enemy aircraft use their RWR to detect your radar emissions.
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According to data from SAMsim guys these are sci-fi values… For all older classic Cold War SAMs from the first detection to launch 25-30 sec in the min with skilled crew…
That sounds about right, but what you have to consider is that the point at which they detect you is not necessarily the the same as the point at which you discover that they’ve detected you. Smaller things like SA-8s would need some time due to their limited radars, but say an SA-2 could track you according to information relayed from search radars with its Fan Song turned off. The time between turning it back on when you’re within the launch envelope and firing could definitely be less than 10 seconds.
The SA-3 that shot down the F-117 would only turn on its radar set very briefly, for less than 20 seconds. Whilst that SAM crew was arguably the best in the world at the time, you also have to weigh that against shooting down an almost invisible F-117, so expecting a well trained SAM battery to have a missile inbound in 10 seconds or less if they chose to launch prior to turning on their FCR isn’t unreasonable.
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@mookar:
http://www.airbase.ru/hangar/weapons/russia/sa/tunguska/
http://www.airbase.ru/hangar/weapons/russia/sa/tunguska/
^^^Two places it says 6-8 sec for the 2S6 (written in russian)
http://www.military-today.com/artillery/2s6_tunguska.htm
^^^‘Around 10 secs’ source (english).
I don’t know how ‘serious’ these sources are for you, probably not a lot, most of them aren’t, but anyway…
For the SA2 it’s around 30 sec - I correct myself
The fastest SHORADS are in the neighborhood of 5 sec (Thor SAM) from radar contact to shot!There are totally theoretial values not measured in RL and crowded airspace and dynamic environment. These are literally values in test range. They are meaningless.