Why so many SA-10 :)
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I tried & I canât.
In TE 63nm was the best case. And that was @ 31kft and above MK1.2The original poster need help avoiding SA-10 threats in HIS campaign experience.
Now its about who has the âbiggest missileâ
Not helpful to the average âJoeâ pilot who now thinks in campaign conditions he can shoot AGM-88 at 70nm out and be effective. Wonât do much for His ego or His planning skills.
Agreed
but - although thatâs TE and less than 70Nm
it scoredThe point that is helpful to the OP is the following:
the BMS harm is capable of much longer range than the actual BMS in range cues
Thatâs valid in both TE and campaign and the actual distance is irrelevant, we are WAY above the in range cues
and certainly that will change tactics and help him stay alive in his SEAD part of the campaign -
@Red:
Agreed
but - although thatâs TE and less than 70Nm
http://www.flybms.org/viperdriver/Pilots/Darkman/images/PET10/PET10Darkman2.jpg
it scoredThe point that is helpful to the OP is the following:
the BMS harm is capable of much longer range than the actual BMS in range cues
Thatâs valid in both TE and campaign and the actual distance is irrelevant, we are WAY above the in range cues
and certainly that will change tactics and help him stay alive in his SEAD part of the campaignNever knew you could launch a HARM outside the LP envelope. Way beyond from what I am seeing here. IMHO, that needs to get fixed.
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Never knew you could launch a HARM outside the LP envelope. Way beyond from what I am seeing here. IMHO, that needs to get fixed.
There are two separate things : make sure the missile behaves like the RL one (range, max speed, etcâŚ) ; and make sure the range cues actually indicates what the missile is capable of.
As the British say : wait and seeâŚ
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afaik, the range cues are a bit inaccurate. Fox1âs will give you the LOSE TOI cue and hit their target without a problem, and Fox3âs are able to go quite a bit further than indicated, especially when lofting (the DLZ will give you a loft angle, but the DLZ does not reflect the additional range a lofted missile has)
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There are two separate things : make sure the missile behaves like the RL one (range, max speed, etcâŚ) ; and make sure the range cues actually indicates what the missile is capable of.
As the British say : wait and seeâŚ
Behave like the real one? I donât think you could do that. But, more ârealisticâ would be more appropriate.
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cues for amraam, agm130 and jsow just to name a few are often inaccurate; countdown to pitbull and WEZ. That said the 35nm bubble of the SA10 is for me NOT for the SA10, as I cannot lock it with JSOW over 35nm but I can with HARM and even then if I stray too far away say in a defensive move my missile may miss or then again it may hit; at least the HARM. In campaign with Veteran AAA setting I can lock and kill the SA10 before it hits me if I stay within the 35 mile bubble after launching HARM hence I wait for a audible rwr warning, launch the HARM, dive and pop up continuously to maintain itâs interest in me then get the kill almost 100pk. Now if I am on a strike mission, or barcap or any *****in mission and have no harms or JSOW and get spiked, I immediately if not sooner gain separation and fly around that fat bastard. This way I live to fly another day.
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To the OP - actually, patrol or fighter escort ops should be performed on a âSAM cleanâ battlefield, escorting a flight in a SA10 environment is all 'round dangerous for every member of that flight. Clean the area you are to perform sweep/escort/patrol at of SA10 first and foremost, then everything else.
the BMS harm is capable of much longer range than the actual BMS in range cues
Yes but does the DLZ(?) of the HARM become âdynamicâ (change itâs size) to emphasize on this?
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There are so many factors that will effect the actual flight of any missile, rocket or kinetic projectile that to expect the on-board systems to calc and display a 100% accurate WEZ is in the least naĂŻve.
OK how many variables do we have, fire/release platforms Ground Speed/Air Speed, Altitude, Attitude, Axial rotation, Slip and temp. Did I miss anything?
Now for the Missile, Rocket or Projectile. Fuel/Propellant load consistency, temp, air density/temp, wind direction (if any), release angle, deviation in its flight path, Low to high, High too Low and the changes that makes to air density/temp wind direction and velocity. Is the target manoeuvring, can that be foreseen. What if its raining that will consume kinetic energy. And more. Its as much an art as it is science.
My point is that because a weapon can on occasion be fired outside it displayed WEZ doesnât necessarily mean the simulation is at fault in any way, Iâm not saying there might be areas where improvements can be made.
Final word is that its the pilotâs job to know when to release the weapon not the airframes. Know thy weapon.
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we need more SA-10s
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we need more SA-10s
Somehow your link lead me to this.
The title made me laugh the content didnât :blowpar:
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There are so many factors that will effect the actual flight of any missile, rocket or kinetic projectile that to expect the on-board systems to calc and display a 100% accurate WEZ is in the least naĂŻve.
OK how many variables do we have, fire/release platforms Ground Speed/Air Speed, Altitude, Attitude, Axial rotation, Slip and temp. Did I miss anything?
Now for the Missile, Rocket or Projectile. Fuel/Propellant load consistency, temp, air density/temp, wind direction (if any), release angle, deviation in its flight path, Low to high, High too Low and the changes that makes to air density/temp wind direction and velocity. Is the target manoeuvring, can that be foreseen. What if its raining that will consume kinetic energy. And more. Its as much an art as it is science.
My point is that because a weapon can on occasion be fired outside it displayed WEZ doesnât necessarily mean the simulation is at fault in any way, Iâm not saying there might be areas where improvements can be made.
Final word is that its the pilotâs job to know when to release the weapon not the airframes. Know thy weapon.
Yes but knowing âthyâ weapon comes form experience, and you donât normally shoot multi-hundred thousand dollar ordenance (yeah, itâs a sim but anyway) out of DLZ on a âto-see-if-it-will-hitâ basis The DLZ(?) on most of the weapons in Falcon are ball park estimate that is âoptimally exaggeratedâ, it is accurate enough and should be considered for a decent shot:)
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Ultimately BMS doesnât have to model DLZ to match missile behavior with so many factors. Its lifeâs goal is to match F-16 DLZ behavior which must be simpler math. Leave it to Lockheed Martin to worry about matching DLZ to missile behavior. A simâs job is not to improve on the genuine articleâs performance.
And for long HARM shots I use TOF timer on WPN page for POS mode. When less than 200 seconds I am in range. My shot from before had ~185 predicted TOF, actual about 195.
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Ultimately BMS doesnât have to model DLZ to match missile behavior with so many factors. Its lifeâs goal is to match F-16 DLZ behavior which must be simpler math. Leave it to Lockheed Martin to worry about matching DLZ to missile behavior. A simâs job is not to improve on the genuine articleâs performance.
And for long HARM shots I use TOF timer on WPN page for POS mode. When less than 200 seconds I am in range. My shot from before had ~185 predicted TOF, actual about 195.
Amen to that.
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@mookar:
The DLZ(?) on most of the weapons in Falcon are ball park estimate that is âoptimally exaggeratedâ, it is accurate enough and should be considered for a decent shot:)
Thats very true. The original DLZ range code of F4 was clearly not the best. Its has only been changed for the AIM-120 in BMS, with new range data.
Now as this range data is a pain to obtain (you need tests, basically), you can understand not every missile has an accurate DLZ.
So, for now in 4.32, it is like this. In 4.33⌠wait and see.
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done
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@mookar:
Yes but knowing âthyâ weapon comes form experience, and you donât normally shoot multi-hundred thousand dollar ordenance (yeah, itâs a sim but anyway) out of DLZ on a âto-see-if-it-will-hitâ basis The DLZ(?) on most of the weapons in Falcon are ball park estimate that is âoptimally exaggeratedâ, it is accurate enough and should be considered for a decent shot:)
But if you read the thread you would realize that that post was in response to an overtone that the sim should display a âperfectâ WEZ. Some seemed surprised that a weapon can some times be fired out side the displayed WEZ indicator and thus the indicator needs fixing.
Iâm saying its only an indicator and it cant be 100% at all times displaying Max engagement range, thatâs why they put pilots at the controls.
And I never said shoot "out of DLZ on a âto-see-if-it-will-hitâ basis " I was originally questioning the wisdom of earlier posts Quoting figures like â>70nmâ.
âKnow thy Weaponâ does not ONLY come from actually shooting them.
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But if you read the thread you would realize that that post was in response to an overtone that the sim should display a âperfectâ WEZ
I agree with you, the WEZ is a reference tool, very useful yes, you still may opt to launch outside of it though with various degrees of succsess
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BMS is amazing. I like the RedFlag Korea, except you have to face the dauntable SA-10 with only an AGM-45 whose range is just a little further than the 20MM. I generally fly under 100 ft AGL for the last 15NM or so. I love Toms Terrain and its peaks and valleys to use to terrain mask along the way. I like to cut a path across the FLOT to give our side wide path to operate within. I have learned to look at the flight paths of all of the flights to keep their approach to their targets at low altitude. I have seen whole entire flights of F15s and B-52s shot down on a single mission by one SA-10 battalion. These are very deadly to say the least. Many times my heart was pounding as I pulled over the last rise in the terrain to have the S-300 IADS right in front of me at about 6 or 7 miles. I usually fire and cut throttle and slice back and down and beam for a couple of seconds and reapply some throttle as I break back toward safety.
Just think, in the real world, these soviet built systems are being handed out like candy to forces who would love to use against us and our allies.
To your success.
Raven
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BMS is amazing. âŚâŚSA-10âŚ
Just think, in the real world, these soviet built systems are being handed out like candy to forces who would love to use against us and our allies.
Raven
And America doesnât play the same game ?
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Agave_blue is right u get shot even bellow 100ft if conditions permit. And this might be and real if another radar is tracking u.
About distance u can go longer then 70 miles if u loft the weapon adequately the question is the altitude and how it would affect the weapons trajectory.
Iâm sure the correct answer will come and will be: wait 3-4 weeks