SA-17 … evading, any tips?
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Can anyone evade this flocking sam ? (on veteran diff.)
And, by evade , I don’t mean circle around engagement zone. I mean what if ‘surprise attack’.
I… just can’t.
Youtube video , please
Regards
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Fly low and fast manually.
And low is low… Not auto tfr.Στάλθηκε από το MI 5 μου χρησιμοποιώντας Tapatalk
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1. If you are high enough then dive hard and fast - Usually that will cause the missile to chase you down and it will be hard for it to chase you back up when you will get out of the dive.
2. If you are low then try to use the terrain to avoid it.
3. If you are low and don’t have terrain and can’t run it out, then jettison everything, push throttle to full burner, pick-up some speed and when it’s in the appropriate distance from you, bank as hard as you can into it and hopefully it won’t be able to take the turn with you.
All those chances are bad though. You just need to know that it’s a missile you can’t outturn (Just like many others in the sim… unless you fly at real extreme parameters) so don’t get to a bad situation with it.
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The SA-17 is a very tough system. It is TELAR unit so each individual vehcile has a self contained transport, erector, launcher, and radar all fit snugly on one chassis. Given that it has a minimum engagement altitude of less than 100 ft, it is extremely difficult to sneak up on and attack without getting detected and launched upon. With that said it is not invincible and there are several tactics you can use to bring them down.
One method is search and destroy. In a nutshell you put the 17 spike at the 12 on your RWR and search for ground units that fit the description along that line. The Grizzly is mobile, so using GMT is a good idea as well as GM on the FCR. You will either find them moving to a new location or stationary protecting an objective. Once you detect the unit and visually ID through TGP or some other means, you can then destroy the unit. Standoff is probably the best method, so SBDs, JSOW, or AGM-65. Obviously the latter is going to put you at the greatest risk with the need to shoot within the WEZ of the Maverick. You probably will receive a launch that you’ll have to trash if you employ a AGM-65, just keep that in mind.
Obviously goes without saying we can use a HARM in both HTS or via the WPN page and its various submodes (POM, PB, and RUK). Easiest of all, just remember that SA-17s usually come in groups of 8 or more vehicles, so one HARM will only destroy one SAM unit leaving the other vehicles unaffected. You would need at least a 4-ship flight with 2 x AGM-88 each to kill the entire battalion using this method.
You can also utilize either a pop-up or CBU loft, though these would be the options with the greatest risk, as you will have to trespass quite far into the engagement zone around the SAM. Requires screaming in extremely low (trying to keep under the 93 ft engagement height of the SAM… good luck! ) and then the associated tactics with lofting or pop-up. PUP -> PDP -> acquire target/aim off point -> release -> egress. If you get launched on while being so close to the unit, you are probably going to be shot down, even if you get the tally and defend with good countertactics, the missile is extremely fast with a burn time of 28 seconds, so it has a ton of maneuvering potential against you and is one of the most lethal systems within its WEZ.
Taking on SA-17s is no joke, hopefully this gives you a little basis to start trying new things against this type of unit. Very tough system, but once you master killing them makes the lower level threat systems seem much less dangerous.
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To expand on missile evasion and align a little more with your original question, a pop-up attack from a SA-17 should be managable given you are not too close to the system. Obviously you can defeat in a couple different methods, angles, energy, OBCM. Most likely will be a combination of all methods to successfully trash the launch.
In general if I am far enough from the unit, a sliceback (full AB at 135 degrees bank to maintain 300-400 knots until the missile is behind you and you’re on the reciprocal heading), then stopping 30-60 degress nose low, unload to 0 G and accelerate to 600 knots / Mach 1.0 whichever is higher, then pulling the nose to the horizon, pitch to maintain Mach 1.0 or greater while S-turning the missile to each side of the 3/9 line. This forces the missile into a massive lead pursuit course which will bleed down all of its energy and trash it.
If I am too close to the system, the only way to defeat the missile is to break across its LOS again which forces the missile at its performance limit (needs more G/speed than is available). So you can either do it like an orthogonal break (rolling and pulling to keep the missile on the 3/9 until overshoot) or just keep it on the beam until just before and then pulling across the horizon forcing an overshoot toward the 6.
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I usually do the following:
1. Detect the launch.
2.Turn 45 degreese down, so that you head to the opposite side of the SAM.
3. Before hitting the ground, make a turn to not hit the ground. If you would make this turn too early, it won’t be effective, but too late and you are dead. I would recommend starting it with lower Gs, and getting to medium Gs at the end, so that if you see that your turn rate isn’t good enough you can increase it.
4. The missiles will likely slam into the ground if done correctly.
5. Fly low and fast. Try to use hills to hide from the radar and prevent the launching of additional missiles.NOTE: If you are very high until you reach down too much time might pass, so do this only from low and maybe medium altitudes.
Also, if you are extremely close to the SAM, right above it or close to that, try diving towards it while making hard maneuvers. You might outmaneuver the missile if its right after launch as the missile is raletively slow and unmaneuverable. -
Problem is that I am doing about all that , with few humble exceptions.
I’ve ‘mastered’ … well , most of older sams , but this , this is something different. … Even SA10/SA-N-6 , are doable in their own ways. For SA10 use more terrain masking , but SA-N-6, there is no terrain masking over sea , so, outmaneuvering is the key. Dive and jink.
With SA17, what ever I do bloody thing always intercept me, even when diving straight to nadir. You don’t have more then 5 secs, 3/4 to max range, ~25nm… It is very fast and agile missile.
Obviously I am doing but just not good enough, I know, trick is in timing… an lots of chaff. Jammer on. Last turn into missile. (so it gets a bit blinded, just for a sec, but enough)
Little sneek’n’peek into db … little birdie says that bi*** has better pk on low-air. .75. and, unfortunately terrain is open valley, no hills, outmaneuvering is a must here…
I’ve lost half of sq. planes already … grin… But I won’t surrender, no sir.
Will keep trying. (If anyone wants I can upload this ‘killing ground’), but it is simple … just put SA17 in new TE and try for yourself. But… not on an empty plane … emerg. jettison is ok.
CAT5.5: 1/9 120, 2/8 9X, 3/7 agm88, 4/6 330lb, 5 B61 (mission is deep strike nuke delivery, intercepted by sam at ~4/5 of the range to target) — Broken Arrow.(The sum of all fears)Thanks for the tips again guys!!.
Cheers:drink: -
ultimately the SAM’s designer has made the tradeoff of maneuverability for range.
range then, is the achilles heel and what you should exploit. it is like asking how to dodge a shilka- the point of the shilka is it’s lethality at relatively close ranges, so don’t go close.
attempting to kinetically defeat it misses the point- you must press against the enemy’s weakest point, not their strongest.
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Yes, I would use range and avoid damn thing altogether, better safe then sorry, but it surprises you because it is in a path , covering target area. You must cross through somehow. Like a puzzle.
Ha!!, but, using some tips , I’ve managed to evade 3 of them , from 150ft into burner to target stp, climb 10-15k, launch warning, dive into sam , see 2-3 trails, switch had fire my only '88 to '17, jink down-up, split-s, saw explosion on 17… continue up high to target., ~26k drop the bomb , continue up 10…15 in burner to get speed rolling (it’s a nuke) out of there, then blam!! without warning, probably her sister SA2 via optical.(was still jamming) //Sh… then something finished me off.
Not my day… eternal light lit up the night sky. (fire shockwave went in radius)But, happy, I know it can be done. Now just to survive
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Well, obviously never get within threat parameters. :eek: If you spot them, fly around or abandon mission unless you are carrying stand-off weapons as Redshift20 mentioned. About trying to “master” a SA17 ask yourself: Would you do it in RL?
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@TwanV:
Well, obviously never get within threat parameters. :eek: If you spot them, fly around or abandon mission unless you are carrying stand-off weapons as Redshift20 mentioned. About trying to “master” a SA17 ask yourself: Would you do it in RL?
Approach from different directions with as many HARM platfroms as possible with SOJ support. In BMS4 Buk is far from its RL capability while SEAD is over modeled a bit. In RL Buk is able to shot down ARMs (was designed to kill AGM-84) and in Falcon a single battalion (DB) can launch and guide a single missile against a single target. The RL composition of a Buk brigade is here, it contains 4x batteries:
https://www.mediafire.com/folder/9ev10eefzb499/BMS_database_13-07-2016A single battery in RL have 6 target channels considering even only Buk M1 or M1-2. The latest Buk has even more, a single TELAR now has sim. eng. capability because it has ESA type radar.
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Thanks Molni!!!
IADS/GCI is my favorite feature in Falcon, no many ‘games’ with it , any ? . Not sure if it is still working (vehicle/unit/battalion/brigade/division?) could use for SA17 , sharing target between TELARS.
Maybe do you know what distance from unit with SOJ support is more effective, 60nm? 100nm?
(I would do it myself to know how to debug radars)btw. Do you still have your reworked (corrected) db, simdata, with eastern block and other units…
Very sorry that you left Taiwan theatre… that was killing ground in FF , most dynamic campaign ever… Wave after wave of reds incoming , Sa-n-6 awaits you soon after takoff, in sea channel that is … I live againCheers, Molni and thanks for stuff!!
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Thanks Molni!!!
IADS/GCI is my favorite feature in Falcon, no many ‘games’ with it , any ? .
Is no real IADS and GCI in Falcon what you can see is just a good illusion.
Not sure if it is still working (vehicle/unit/battalion/brigade/division?) could use for SA17 , sharing target between TELARS.
SAM eng. with data and code works such way what players should not know, it is a part of the illusion what you experience.
Maybe do you know what distance from unit with SOJ support is more effective, 60nm? 100nm?
(I would do it myself to know how to debug radars)In Realis Patch 5 manual (is a very, very old document for a very, very old F4.0 patch) is an equation how decreases the SOJ the radar detection range. I do not know is valid or not…
During my test with 4.32 a SOJ AC within 40-50 nm of even SA-10 literally blocked all radar SAM launch. SOJ AC currently way OP and red side does not have such AC. I tried to create in my Korea '80s mod a SOJ Su-24 for USSR but I was not successful.
btw. Do you still have your reworked (corrected) db, simdata, with eastern block and other units…
I have but I never will have time to make a new MOD. It is way to time consuming. I do not have time fly with Falcon, since 2009 I have not finished a single campagin, since FF5… I flew only some hours with 4.33 to test TFR and somem other stuff but I literally out of flight sim flying businnes for a way too long time. Maybe one time I will be back but I do not know when this will come.
Hopefully the core DB will be modified sooner or later by the team. I made the linked doc for this purpose. The next major step will be altering a bit flare and chaff chance values for some radars and also beaming and some other modifiers maybe should be changed. Not only because of RL but IMHO also should be kept in mind the fun. IMHO is not fun fly against holy weapons. This is why I also love '80s.
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Hopefully the core DB will be modified sooner or later by the team. I made the linked doc for this purpose. The next major step will be altering a bit flare and chaff chance values for some radars and also beaming and some other modifiers maybe should be changed. Not only because of RL but IMHO also should be kept in mind the fun. IMHO is not fun fly against holy weapons. This is why I also love '80s.
Well… now when you’ve said it , I’ve checked SA17 , and is NOT FINISHED(*) also , SWD points to sa11 … but there is sa17.dat (and is even worse then sa11 . lol, more G’s) , just not added .veh and swd. But… no biggie, yet.
Really , I curse Falcon engine ancient design that doesn’t allow more radar vehicles to a unit., as IADS or backup… Please , o’hear me mighty devs…
That would be AWESOME… more opposition, more playability. I guess.Sa17 platoon has 3!!! radars.
http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-9K37-Buk.html
I’m almost bored looking y’tub kiddiez flying 3rd/4th gen fighter against no opposition or pitfull SA2/6… well they can sting too… if you’re not careful… but that’s all old news.
Except dogfight (which is btw, everCOOL) , sam opposition in those vids is equal to nil…
Let’em watch some cool movies, as ‘The flight of intruder’ … who’s ur daddy now !!?But that’s life… G’day mr.Molnibalage!
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Sa17 platoon has 3!!! radars.
What you see is not Buk M1 or M1-2. I think this is M3 and not a platoon.
The brigade have 4x batteries.
Each batteries have 3x firing units.
Each units - I guess you call this platoon - have 2xTELAR + 1xTEL.The radar on left side is the long range 360 scan EW radar, which is available 1/battery.
What is special the 2nd from rigth a new conception, it seems to me a CW low lever radar similar as was Clam Shell (NVO) for S-300Ps/PT. -
Attacking an SA-17 battalion with a slow moving JSOW LOL
I desperately want the SA-17 to be able to shoot down HARMs and Glide bombs in-game
Probably very difficult to model, but fingers crossed
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I desperately want the SA-17 to be able to shoot down HARMs and Glide bombs in-game
Probably very difficult to model, but fingers crossed
Not necessailly sooo dificult, but might break quite rapidly the entire campaign equilibrium, same applies Ith cruise missile.
Putting a feet into this will probably have HUGE (unfortunate) consequences downstream. -
i think it is important though Dee-jay, to get the modeling of attacking high-threat systems right.
as it is now, SA-10/11/17 get rolled off the table too quickly because a single HARM fired at them means that they will lose radars- it should in theory require a critical mass of HARM/JSOW/SDB/decoys to exhaust/defeat them.
my one complaint about the game is in general how fast even a very high tech and reinforced red samwall gets rolled off the table. seems like 1x falcon/hornet can reliably kill any SAM in the game from HARM RMAX which AFAIK isn’t realistic due to self-defense abilities.
i think it would be a good feature, and we could get mald/mald-J at that same time, right?
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it should in theory require a critical mass of HARM/JSOW/SDB/decoys to exhaust/defeat them.
You said it => “in theory”
On the battlefield, this “theory” is very often very different than what is advertised. Intercepting a 1.5m² RCS missile flying at M2+ is not so easy and I can bet that, if the system is in a mode allowing to detect and engage such a small RCS, it will not be optimized to efficiently deal with another type of target.
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