AIM-7M sparrow & the RWR
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Lots of reports that most of the sidewinders fired in ODS were the result of unintentionally pickling, too.
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Lots of reports that most of the sidewinders fired in ODS were the result of unintentionally pickling, too.
Exactly. The RL kill ratio of intentionally launched was about 65%.
Detailed AAM stats.
http://www.mediafire.com/download/grlx9uyt34yimge/AAM-stats.zipHere is a off, on page 25 there is statistics of aim-120a &c fired between -92-99.
http://www.mossekongen.no/downloads/2008_RAND_Pacific_View_Air_Combat_Briefing.pdf
Don’t know about references but interesting.
There is also some figures on aim-9m for example, 48 fired and 11kills during DS.Cheers
This RAND stuff has been beaten to death. It has so funny aspects and statements…
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I thank the RL Viper drivers for their input, as I’m sure this makes BMS better, but I’m also fairly sure that they won’t let the BMS team simulate the full extent of real life problems of whatever weapon they can employ…
Of course not, and especially classified stuff… but there is still a ballpark, if we are in then it’s good.
@ALL I don’t know what RL statistics you are coming with, but I’m talking about pure outmaneuvering and not some statistics… what are the chances to escape a clean AMRAAM shot in good parameters in RL? not so good I believe… it’s like in BMS you can take AMRAAM shot from 20NM and get a kill but in case the missile is detected in time it would be easy enough to spoof…
If anyone can get real statistics of AMRAAM shots when were fired inside the NEZ, now that would be nice.
And also a lot of time passed since the early 90s… come on, can anyone think there is an AC that can outmaneuver a Pyhton-4/5 shot or AIM-9XII or AIM-2000 when they are fired in NEZ?
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I want to see someone defeat a clean shot of AIM-120 when fired well inside NEZ range and not aware of the time that the missile was fired.
I desperately wish I had that ACMI now.
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And also a lot of time passed since the early 90s… come on, can anyone think there is an AC that can outmaneuver a Pyhton-4/5 shot or AIM-9XII or AIM-2000 when they are fired in NEZ?
It what aspect and what kinematics in certain case?
The AIM-9X has much less drag as AIM-9M because of much less lift generating surface comarping to older Winder… but this means weaker turning capabilty on the same speed…
The AIM-9X may represents a new conception where a portion of manouverability after engine burnout is sacrificed for bigger (all aspect) range. This is possible becaise of because of being smokeless if case the bigger eng. range in head aspect the launch cannot be detected with eyeball only in case you the target is lucky or has good MAWS. The new generation of imaging IR seeker has better range as classic non imaging seekers.
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OK… Please tell me if any AC can outmaneuver this please:
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You all the time like to think that missiles are so easily spoofed but that’s not the case… i don’t know which world you think of but at nowadays era with missiles that do all kind of stuff like LOAL 360 shots, DL shots, with crazy maneuverability, the chances to avoid a modern missile are indeed very low.
… not only chaffs. Nowadays, even falres has a very weak effiency on most of IR missiles working in band II. The poblem of chaffs is their dispersion and speed decrease making them easy to be rejected by missile AD.
Chaff and flares are not something to guaranty a missile defeat but only a possible chance to survive. The only way to ensure a high chance to survive, is to not enter into the WEZ.
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OK… Please tell me if any AC can outmaneuver this please:
As I know both P4/P5 has also very different conception comparing to other HOBS capable IRSRAAMs. Their rocket engine has unusally longer burn time (10-12 sec) but lower max. thrust which ensures better average speed to make usable the unusually high area of aerodynamic surfaces - and aviod the unnecessary acceleration after the launch in case of the target BOF is very high - but this also does not mean that in terminal phase at close to subsonic speed (or below supersonic) they cannot be outmanouvered as othe SAMs and AAMs either…
Too many times I have felt national pride in case Israeli/French/USA etc. missiles are discussed and a native of these countries participated in discussions…
What a surprise, when I had discussions with some older SAM operation from WPACT countires they also said so funny things that a 3 missile Neva salvo cannot be outmanovered, etc… -
Chaff and flares are not something to guaranty a missile defeat but only a possible chance to survive. The only way to ensure a high chance to survive, is to not enter into the WEZ.
+1
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Too many times I have felt national pride in case Israeli/French/USA etc
… where … ?
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As I know both P4/P5 has also very different conception comparing to other HOBS capable IRSRAAMs. Their rocket engine has unusally longer burn time (10-12 sec) but lower max. thrust which ensures better average speed to make usable the unusually high area of aerodynamic surfaces - and aviod the unnecessary acceleration after the launch in case of the target BOF is very high - but this also does not mean that in terminal phase at close to subsonic speed (or below supersonic) they cannot be outmanouvered as othe SAMs and AAMs either…
Too many times I have felt national pride in case Israeli/French/USA etc. missiles are discussed and a native of these countries participated in discussions…
What a surprise, when I had discussions with some older SAM operation from WPACT countires they also said so funny things that a 3 missile Neva salvo cannot be outmanovered, etc…National pride… come one man, do you think I care really? FWIW I’m a “green” soldier in at the IDF :mrgreen:
But I see what I see… I’m not a rocket scientist but I see in vid a missile doing 180 turn just the moment after launch where thrust is highest, do you think this can be outmaneuvered by any AC?? how many Gs it’s pulling in that maneuver anyway?
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I desperately wish I had that ACMI now.
I heard this so many time but I’d like to see 1 person who can record for me please how he can evade AMRAAM shot in the sim fired straight at him from 5-6NM head on at OPERATIONAL parameters (i.e don’t fly 800 knots and dive the ground to shake the missile), I’d REALLY like to see that.
And you see, I don’t care about wild west servers magic shots, or 1 vs 1 DF simulator like training, I care only about a real mission when you really fight as close as you can to what RL pilots do, and THERE I’d like to see someone evade an AIM-120 shot this way in NEZ parameters.
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And you see, I don’t care about wild west servers magic shots, or 1 vs 1 DF simulator like training, I care only about a real mission when you really fight as close as you can to what RL pilots do, and THERE I’d like to see someone evade an AIM-120 shot this way in NEZ parameters.
This is not an answer to Yoni, but I just wanted to point this out, if you fly close to what RL pilots would do, you would never find yourself (knowingly) in the NEZ of a red guy, whatever the mission risk, you respect your timeline and you are out way before that.
Having said that, even if you do what is described above, using whatever game-ish maneuver you like, and come out out alive, then imo this should be examined.
I have not seend the ACMI yet, but what the OP describes is incredibly bad luck or something to be investigated?
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I heard this so many time but I’d like to see 1 person who can record for me please how he can evade AMRAAM shot in the sim fired straight at him from 5-6NM head on at OPERATIONAL parameters (i.e don’t fly 800 knots and dive the ground to shake the missile), I’d REALLY like to see that.
And you see, I don’t care about wild west servers magic shots, or 1 vs 1 DF simulator like training, I care only about a real mission when you really fight as close as you can to what RL pilots do, and THERE I’d like to see someone evade an AIM-120 shot this way in NEZ parameters.
Operational parameters? Fighting the way RL pilots do? Id love to read the RMD and IRMD sections of the AFTTP 3-1, but until those get released (likely the 15th of never), you cannot say what is and is not operational parameters. The closest document that I have found which is available online is the F-16 Basic Employment Manual (not going to link here due to complaints - DESPITE its unclassified unrestricted status), and even that document has nothing on missile defence, just descriptions of how to fly so as to not get in a WEZ - and even then you need to refer to other classified manuals to get actual ranges and so on…
So basically you want to see a RL F-16 pilot record this for you in BMS.
Anyway, the event I was recalling was a training mission, not a ‘real’ mission. It was not 5 to 6 miles, and it was not head on. And as Ive no tapes of it, its not really of much use anyway.
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Here is a off, on page 25 there is statistics of aim-120a &c fired between -92-99.
http://www.mossekongen.no/downloads/2008_RAND_Pacific_View_Air_Combat_Briefing.pdf
Don’t know about references but interesting.
There is also some figures on aim-9m for example, 48 fired and 11kills during DS.Cheers
Excellent read, thanks!
Uwe
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Operational parameters? Fighting the way RL pilots do?…
Yes, a lot of VFSs are flying that way, or AS CLOSE AS POSSIBLE to that. “Real” mission is a situation that you not prepared for anything specific but you are prepared for everything.
But let’s not go ot far with that, a basic campaign flight when you are confronting SU-27s equipped with AA-12s, even that is good enough for me… you bets chance here is to try to defeat them with AMRAAMs or to turn around and run in order to out-range the Adders. Let me know 1 man that can evade those Adders head on and get out alive from such a meeting, but in a “real” mission
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Yes, a lot of VFSs are flying that way, or AS CLOSE AS POSSIBLE to that. “Real” mission is a situation that you not prepared for anything specific but you are prepared for everything.
But let’s not go ot far with that, a basic campaign flight when you are confronting SU-27s equipped with AA-12s, even that is good enough for me… you bets chance here is to try to defeat them with AMRAAMs or to turn around and run in order to out-range the Adders. Let me know 1 man that can evade those Adders head on and get out alive from such a meeting, but in a “real” mission
Well as the adder is modeled very differently to the AIM-120, its really a moot point. Completely different engagement, completely different missile.
Don’t think those VFS’s have AFTTP3-1s to share, and the only squadrons I heard of trying to get as close as possible are the 1st stingers and the viper drivers… and I keep getting the cold shoulder from the viper drivers forums.
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Don’t think those VFS’s have AFTTP3-1s to share, and the only squadrons I heard of trying to get as close as possible are the 1st stingers and the viper drivers…
only… that’s a big word here.