SDBs in Tandem: Using the Meter Sticks
-
Maybe SDBs aren’t meant to be used in this manner, but here’s what I’ve been trying to do:
I wanted to kill these vehicles:
I try to use the TGP Meter Sticks (set to feet) to gauge the spacing:
I set the SMS release profile accordingly.
I set a Markpoint in-between the targets:
Results: the SDBs landed well-past the targets and not 200 feet apart:
-
If i am not mistaken after creating the mark point and before releasing you should tms up the markpoint. Did you do that?
Edit: @Crassus after reading a few posts in here it seems I am mistaken , you should not tms up at each markpoint but you should go wide fov - tms down- CZ after creating the markpoint and before releasing. Maybe this will help. https://forum.falcon-bms.com/post/207667 -
@danaos75
Yep, sure did.- Created Markpoint.
- Mode Select/ M-SEL.
- ICP Previous.
- Cursor Zero.
-
Wasn’t aware you could change the Meter stick scale, i.e. meters to feet.
-
@CriticalMass said in SDBs in Tandem: Using the Meter Sticks:
Wasn’t aware you could change the Meter stick scale, i.e. meters to feet.
Spacing is feet right and the meter stick is, well, meters. You are conflating two different measurements into a solution; unless I’m missing something.
-
@CriticalMass
No. There is a change in the measurements when you alternate between meters and feet. -
@Crassus said in SDBs in Tandem: Using the Meter Sticks:
@CriticalMass
No. There is a change in the measurements when you alternate between meters and feet.Pretty sure that’s not doing what you think it’s doing - it has nothing to do with the pointer.
You have frag selected as a menu option the option below the
<FRAG>
are sub-menu items>FEET
is the scale for the frag pattern radius.If you go back to the
<MAIN>
menu and move down to and selectPTR1
you can change this toPTR2
,PTR3
orPTR4
- I believe this is the “pattern” the pointer flashes at - so, for example, if you wingman sets his toPTR2
and element lead sets his toPTR3
and they are laser pointing you can tell who’s who (I also believe this is only relevant for MP). -
@CriticalMass
No mate. You’re wrong. @Crassus is doing shit right, this needs further testing.
Yes you can change meter-stick DISPLAY (not scale) between meters/feet , but since in SMS everything is Nm/Feet , why bother, maybe someone likes more conversion on-the-fly?Also “POINTER” - PTRx have nothing to do with Frag radius/Meter-stick, why even point it out, completely irrelevant in this case.
I see no point trying to be smart about it here, - just try to repeat @Crassus stuff , if you succeed , please tell us all.
@Crassus
Yep, procedure is right. Not sure why are not hitting stuff, needs testing I suppose.I also had “problems” in 4.36.1 with AGM-154A in “tandem” (side-by-side) shot. - one always missed , shown later in debrief. - not sure which one left/right. - probably “tandem” one, secondary - but I could be wrong, as SPI should be in center with tandem shot
That stuff previously worked fine in 4.35, but now…, maybe you are on to something.
Don’t know, guess needs more testing and testers, please guys, give your best shot
Cheers
p.s. maybe , for start try to miss the target, just for the heck of it, to measure the missing part, … put SPI on target (tank) , not between - and see how much you miss - left - right
-
@white_fang said in SDBs in Tandem: Using the Meter Sticks:
@CriticalMass
No mate. You’re wrong. @Crassus is doing shit right, this needs further testing.
Yes you can change meter-stick DISPLAY (not scale) between meters/feet , but since in SMS everything is Nm/Feet , why bother, maybe someone likes more conversion on-the-fly?Interesting, you must enlighten me, I’ve checked the docs and as far as I see you cannot change DISPLAY between meters and feet - happy to be proved wrong.
I’m only going by what @Crassus initially posted - like I said maybe I missed something, a little bit of humility goes a long way they say.Also “POINTER” - PTRx have nothing to do with Frag radius/Meter-stick, why even point it out, completely irrelevant in this case.
I’m well aware PTR has nothing to do with the frag radius/meter-stick - this is what I wrote - I was just trying to be informative (try it sometime )
I see no point trying to be smart about it here, - just try to repeat @Crassus stuff, if you succeed, please tell us all.
Really not that bothered, feels a bit gamey, but you go ahead. Thinking about it though, you might be able to use the frag radius symbol as a substitute for the meterstick, in judging the spacing between targets - try it perhaps?
@Crassus
Yep, procedure is right. Not sure why are not hitting stuff, needs testing I suppose.I also had “problems” in 4.36.1 with AGM-154A in “tandem” (side-by-side) shot. - one always missed , shown later in debrief. - not sure which one left/right. - probably “tandem” one, secondary - but I could be wrong, as SPI should be in center with tandem shot
That stuff previously worked fine in 4.35, but now…, maybe you are on to something.
Don’t know, guess needs more testing and testers, please guys, give your best shot
Cheers
p.s. maybe , for start try to miss the target, just for the heck of it, to measure the missing part, … put SPI on target (tank) , not between - and see how much you miss - left - right
-
If you set FRAG=ON, you will get a circle-shape which has the radius set according to the FRAG submenu (see my highlighting below). That can be shown in feet or meter. That can visually indicate the spacing in ft you are after.
Here, you have turned FRAG=OFF, try turning it ON:
This would be the options available (from the training manual, p145). Note that you would set the radius unit to FEET, not METER as shown here:
-
@CriticalMass You are right.
The meter/feet selector is used only for the frag radius.
The number next to the meterstick is always in meter, depending of the zoom factor and the distance of the tgp to the ground.
Besides, you can make the frag radius distance matching exactly the meterstick distance in meter if you can have the meterstick number equal to the frag radius distance in TGP.
-
@ericfa2a said in SDBs in Tandem: Using the Meter Sticks:
@CriticalMass You are right.
The meter/feet selector is used only for the frag radius.
He is NOT right, but this is true.
The number next to the meterstick is always in meter, depending of the zoom factor and the distance of the tgp to the ground.
Totally wrong.
Besides, you can make the frag radius distance matching exactly the meterstick distance in meter if you can have the meterstick number equal to the frag radius distance in TGP.
??? Even the best decoders couldn’t figure this one out.
But all of you are missing the point!
Why use METERS if the whole game is already in FEETS !!!
What does this have with the point of SDBs missing within the assigned parameters??But anyway… you are way off the OP., even, “TOO INFORMATIVE”
I suggest you quit your ill philosophy, you don’t look any smarter.Do something useful - Do the tests, report findings, … nothing more.
There will be time when you will shine your five mins of glory., but this is not how its done.
I give my word to real testers… (rest my case). Bah.
-
Thanks, all, for your input.
Just doing some further testing with the Frag radius enabled, and set to 310 feet.
SMS set accordingly.
Markpoint designated on the middle vehicle (I slewed the cursor off just for the screenshot).
Results: vehicles killed but impacts not where I wanted them.
I’ll be doing more testing; hopefully others who look into it will post their finding.
-
@Crassus
If the Radius of the frag pattern is 160ft and the spacing of the bombs is 160ft, the bombs are only 80ft from center -
@white_fang Talkin loud, saying nothing.
tl;dr
@Crassus, thanks for taking the time to investigate this, it certainly looks like a personal endeavour - not something someone should be jumping all over (despite what others might be saying). I hope the info regarding the METERSTICK vs PTR units was correct and/or useful - apologies if it was not, but I’m still to be convinced the units can be changed.
Anyway, good luck, it’s certainly an interesting hypothesis.
@white_fang , you still haven’t suggested a way to change the METERSTICK from meters to feet. If you are saying that the METERSTICK is really a YARDSTICK and it’s up to the ‘pilot’ to do the maths, then say so and stop obfuscating.
With regard to doing the testing myself, I really don’t have the time: let alone RL or BMS knowledge to know if what I’m testing is “real” or not. That doesn’t mean I am disqualified from commenting if I think I see a discrepancy in what the manual(s) say and what is being reported.
Anyway, I’m sure you mean well, if not particularly expressed in a friendly manner.
-
@CriticalMass said: @white_fang Talkin loud, saying nothing.
Wha…?
White Fang…?! Talking loud…!?! White Fang…??
NEVER…!!
-
@Aragorn
I AM not LOUD, maybe when howling at the moonBut now I figured their “common mistake” - they are confusing “METER-stick” with length in meters…
Yes it could be called “YARD-stick” . but I suppose this one counts for real measurement in yards - fixed. - and it does exist., heard of it somewhere.The “-STICK” itself is a variable unit which depends on zoom, same as the frag ellipsis.
It is JUST CALLED meter-stick, it doesn’t really have to be represented/displayed in meters. - hence a “variable” unit… like “VARIABLE SCALE” on maps with zoom function.So, to clarify, for n-th time =>
variable, 1. “meter-stick” = 2. (units length in feet)- variable name, scale
- units of representation
- but to make thing worse , it could be really in meters if switched and selected so via TGP-CTL menu
@CriticalMass
M8 , did you have geography as a subject, anytime?
…or how they say:
“They said I was in elementary school but I couldn’t remember!!” -
@Crassus I have just made a simple TE with JSOW-154A.
- Stp 6 was the target steerpoint at 0 bearing, so i don’t need to change azimuth.
I use the meterstick and the frag radius to set my feets spacing between the two JSOW fired in tandem.
- First, the number for the meterstick is in meters and it’s the total length of the horizontal part of the cross. Here there is a difference with all the docs i have read for BMS :
I made a test when the meterstick displayed 310 in the TGP. I set the frag radius to 1065 feets (325m) using the menu options, and the result : the frag radius was a little longer than the whole horizontal line in the TGP display. Setting it to 985 feet and it was a little shorter than the cross in the TGP display.
- Then, i set the frag radius to see the distance between two groups of SAMS that i want to strike : more or less 2200 feets.
I set the JSOW accordingly in SMS page and fire them. They went exactly where they need to.
- Second attempt was set with a 300 feets separation to strike two SAMS, and there wasn’t any problem. They hit the ground as i have set them.
So for me, tests done, and a lot of new things learned about the TGP.
Thank you
-
@ericfa2a said in SDBs in Tandem: Using the Meter Sticks:
@Crassus I have just made a simple TE with JSOW-154A.
- First, the number for the meterstick is in meters and it’s the total length of the horizontal part of the cross. Here there is a difference with all the docs i have read for BMS
‘TO BMS 1F-16CM-34-1-1.pdf’
Chapter 2.10.3.5 NORTH POINTER / METERSTICK (page 148)By selecting N/M via OSB 19 in the Control page the longitude, latitude and elevation of the current System Point Of Interest (SPI) position will be displayed in the upper left corner of the MFD display along with an arrow pointing north in the upper right corner and a number to the right of the meter stick (cross-hair) which is the length in meters of each line of the cross-hair.
I think all should be clear according to the available docs for BMS provided by the BMS team.
-
@ericfa2a said in SDBs in Tandem: Using the Meter Sticks:
@Crassus I have just made a simple TE with JSOW-154A.
- Stp 6 was the target steerpoint at 0 bearing, so i don’t need to change azimuth.
I use the meterstick and the frag radius to set my feets spacing between the two JSOW fired in tandem.
- First, the number for the meterstick is in meters and it’s the total length of the horizontal part of the cross. Here there is a difference with all the docs i have read for BMS :
I made a test when the meterstick displayed 310 in the TGP. I set the frag radius to 1065 feets (325m) using the menu options, and the result : the frag radius was a little longer than the whole horizontal line in the TGP display. Setting it to 985 feet and it was a little shorter than the cross in the TGP display.
- Then, i set the frag radius to see the distance between two groups of SAMS that i want to strike : more or less 2200 feets.
I set the JSOW accordingly in SMS page and fire them. They went exactly where they need to.
- Second attempt was set with a 300 feets separation to strike two SAMS, and there wasn’t any problem. They hit the ground as i have set them.
So for me, tests done, and a lot of new things learned about the TGP.
Thank you
@ericfa2a nice summary.
Are you saying that the meterstick is bugged (if we assume the documentation, as referenced by @Razor161, is correct)?
@white_fang
I’m happy to proofread your Google Translate as one thing I’ve picked up since losing my way from the Geography class 42 years ago, is a decent level of English (as in grammar etc.) and how the world is full of all kinds (and all means) of people.