FLIR use - do we really need it ?
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Is using NVG makes FLIR option pointless ?
Or the question is, on what area of my mission, using FLIR is a preferred method over NVG use ?
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@regev NOE night flights with TFR.
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@regev I prefer flir because it doesn’t make mfds unreadable
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NVG and FLIR are completely different things with different applications
NVG just amplify residual light while FLIR renders a thermal image of the enviroment.
FLIR is more suitable to low level night flight, where the NVG image is not detailed as FLIR, because FLIR has a high level of detail.
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Take this image as an example. I’m using both FLIR (on left) and NVG (right).
As you can see, FLIR image provides me a crystal clear picture of the environment (because is a thermal imagem), while the NVG can’t do the same (because the NVG can’t amplify total darkness). -
So, according to your comments the main use for FLIR is a a night low-level flight.
I did use it on this situation and found that NVG is better for my SA, i can turn my head around and make a quick turn while watching ALT & ground obstacles. With FLIR it only on HUD/MFD, it a narrow view.
Maybe if on a target line ahead the FLIR is optimal.
@VDK your NVG image is way to dark. When i use NVG i can see the ground details clearly, even the trees . . .
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your NVG image is way to dark. When i use NVG i can see the ground details clearly, even the trees . . .
Depends on night level.
Clear night (level 1 - 2 - 3) … can see clearly …
Dark night (level 4 - 5) NVJs are almost useless. This is where FLIR may be better (FLIR and NVJs don’t shows the same things. NVJs are light intensifiers, FLIR is IR).VDK is fully right.
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@Dee-Jay said in FLIR use - do we really need it ?:
Clear night (level 1 - 2 - 3) … can see clearly …
My NVG image is all the time clear and sharp.
Can it be that this LEVEL you mention always stays at 1-3 value ?
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Is the moon up? Moonless nights out away from cities is incredibly dark with NVGs
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@regev said in FLIR use - do we really need it ?:
So, according to your comments the main use for FLIR is a a night low-level flight.
Not really… see… FLIR applications are also used in poor visibility condition (day or night), and has more level of detail because different heat temperatures in the environment are much more noticeable than light differences.
FLIR and NVG are different things with different applications (one is not better than the other).
The fact that FLIR is not so used nowdays is because the nature of the missions changed a lot! (No more NOE infiltration, just fire stand-off weapons and go away).
Greetings from Brazil!
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@regev said in FLIR use - do we really need it ?:
With FLIR it only on HUD/MFD, it a narrow view.
The FLIR has the capability to “see inside the turn”, in another words… the FLIR is capable of look and project the image on your left/right turn to maintain your SA.
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The FLIR is a targeting sensor, NGV are for SA and visual discrimination of the flying environment heads-up/eyes out.
The FLIR is most effectively used in the night environment for employment of free fall weapons - Mk80 series, etc. - locating targets with thermal contrast, providing a laser spot for laser supported munition or target marking for ground troops.
The FLIR can also be used in the daytime environment for the same purposes, however, environmental factors - solar heating of both the background and the target (which can be dependent on weather, where you are, and time of day) - may degrade its performance compared to night ops.
If you can have both - have both.
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@Stevie FLIR in the F-16 context is the image produced by the AN/AAQ-13 Nav Pod that can be projected up into the HUD, which is what is being discussed here. It is primarily for navigation and obstacle avoidance. Hence why it’s the Nav part of the LANTIRN suite. It doesn’t really offer that much targeting capability and certainly can’t be used to “laser” anything. It sounds to me like you’re talking about a TGP which isn’t what is being discussed.
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@SOBO-87 - got it. I’ve done a lot (and I mean a LOT) of RL FLIR and night systems Integration work, and I tend to just call them all “FLIR”, unless I need to be specific - then they become TFLIR or NFLIR…given that I never even think of putting NFLIR in my Viper HUD, I only think of the TFLIR when it comes to the Viper.
On my present Platform we gave up on NFLIR in the HUD a very long time ago, but in a past life we not only integrated a capability to put NFLIR on the HUD but also integrated hot-spot cueing within the scene. This did prove useful for night visual bombing - NVGs blank when the pilot is looking directly through the HUD - and neither Platform incorporates TFR, so if you are on a Low Level or LATT route you just have to fly it yourself.
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@Stevie said in FLIR use - do we really need it ?:
The FLIR is a targeting sensor, NGV are for SA and visual discrimination of the flying environment heads-up/eyes out.
The FLIR is most effectively used in the night environment for employment of free fall weapons - Mk80 series, etc. - locating targets with thermal contrast, providing a laser spot for laser supported munition or target marking for ground troops.
The FLIR can also be used in the daytime environment for the same purposes, however, environmental factors - solar heating of both the background and the target (which can be dependent on weather, where you are, and time of day) - may degrade its performance compared to night ops.
If you can have both - have both.
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@regev said in FLIR use - do we really need it ?:
Is using NVG makes FLIR option pointless ?
Or the question is, on what area of my mission, using FLIR is a preferred method over NVG use ?
In RL when the FLIR on Block 40/42 was introduced NVG simply did not exist. Also in LR until 2018 NVG + JHMCS were mutually exclusive.