F-14D Cockpit
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At high alt at lower TAS means so low CAS that “dogfight” term turns into a joke. What turn radius what you have if M.65 means only 270 CAS…? on 25k feet…? At 30k feet, 350 CAS = M0.9 = 535 TAS and your thrust more lower. At high alt if you do not fly fast, you do not turn…
If you go lower, you can go a bit lower with speed, but IMHO go below M0.7 as long as you fly in a muiti target engagement is very, very dangerous, especially with F-14. If you have lost your kintetic energy it requires long time to build up again. I mentioned that speed = defense. You can change to alt, you can collapse rapidly the DLZ. F-15 still has much better t/w ratio at all alt, so even count that both AC lost their speed, the acceleration of Eagle is better… Not mentioning the stall issues of TF30… (Yes, early F100-PW-100 was also problematic.)
I never be able to undestand people who try proving how great dogfigter was F-14. Maybe it was better as F-4, but not F-15. As I have mentioned the very experienced pilots of IAF literally laughed on the dogfight capabilites of F-14.
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Getting back to pit building. Pepe, I found this salvage dataplate on an auction site. I thought you’d like to a see a very worn one from a vintage aircraft in case you wanted an older/well used look for the one in your pit.
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At high alt at lower TAS means so low CAS that “dogfight” term turns into a joke. What turn radius what you have if M.65 means only 270 CAS…? on 25k feet…? At 30k feet, 350 CAS = M0.9 = 535 TAS and your thrust more lower. At high alt if you do not fly fast, you do not turn…
Which means you do not dogfight. I understand that mate. I am not arguing the F-14 high altitude performance here, i’m arguing the dogfighting capability.
If you go lower, you can go a bit lower with speed, but IMHO go below M0.7 as long as you fly in a muiti target engagement is very, very dangerous, especially with F-14. If you have lost your kintetic energy it requires long time to build up again. I mentioned that speed = defense. You can change to alt, you can collapse rapidly the DLZ. F-15 still has much better t/w ratio at all alt, so even count that both AC lost their speed, the acceleration of Eagle is better… Not mentioning the stall issues of TF30… (Yes, early F100-PW-100 was also problematic.)
Dangerous? Of course it is, why do you think pilots are discouraged from doing it? I am not trying to argue the doctrine of avoiding dogfights as not valid, i am arguing the capability of the AC to do it. T/W gives you the energy, turning rates and radius five you the angles. Both are equally valid as a choice of tactics. Let me answer you with a question? Was the P-47 a good dogfighter?
I never be able to undestand people who try proving how great dogfigter was F-14. Maybe it was better as F-4, but not F-15. As I have mentioned the very experienced pilots of IAF literally laughed on the dogfight capabilites of F-14.
I will have to ask what do you think by great? It surely is better up-close and personal (dogfighting) then the F-15, but then again F-15 never was especially good at it either. If you ask me is the Tomcat a truly “great” dogfighter, then the answer is no. It is too big for one. Its roll rates at higher energy states are sub par. It also does not allow rudder inputs at AoA greater then 30 degrees…. But it can still point its nose better then any eagle, it can turn inside the Eagle, it can turn at a higher or similar rate then the Eagle. So the only advantage the Eagle has, is T/W. In the mid 90’s even that wasn’t that much better. What use is your speed if you can’t point your armaments and nose at the target? 2 uses: you can chose weather to engage and you may be able to chose when to disengage…maybe.
As for your comment about the IAF pilots…well sorry mate, for every pilot you quote laughing at a plane, i can find you at least one that glorifies it.
P.S. do you want to continue this in PM? We are starting to annoy the other members here
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Was the P-47 a good dogfighter?
Not, but had the power for vertical manoeuvres.
You cannot deny that F-14 emtpy weight is about 7+ ton higher as F-15… Weight is counted for during climbing, turning, everywhere. You can have as low wing load as you can, but for turning, you need thurst.
F-14 with GE engine have the chance to deal with older Soviet fighters, MiG-21bis, MiG-23MF - but against MiG-29, Su-27 and MiG-23MLD its capability if they were close to each other, the Tomcat is not superio, and neighter equal…
it can turn inside the Eagle,
Pls. explain the physic of this staement. If both AC can hold the same speed with same turn radius, means the same turn rate. How can turn inside the F-15 the Tomcat if F-15 all time have better Ps…? It can have the trust for keeping a tigth turn, its sustained turn radius also comparable to F-14.
As I see you made the same mistakes as many “novice” Hungarian on many forums. I’m not sure but you maybe do not understand connection between turn radius, turn rate, max. G, and Ps.
Yes, we can do it in PM.
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Not, but had the power for vertical manoeuvres.
Yes, we can do it in PM.
Just like the Eagle
A smart pilot could never be shot down in it….just like the Eagle…the rest is in PM -
Its just so nice to see a civilised discussion between two people that know what they are talking about…You dont see this on the internet everyday!!
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Its just so nice to see a civilised discussion between two people that know what they are talking about…You dont see this on the internet everyday!!
Not sure if you mean it as a compliment ;), but thanks
I have a lot of respect for the guys here on the BMS forums and Molni’s training videos are bookmarked in my browser. When we do have disagreements, it’s usually purely from a “political” POV :drink: -
having quite a few landing with the cat myself, i somewhat agree. IMO the major difficulty in executing a by the book landing is the high alpha and stall speed of the current flight model. on the deck, IRL, you would normally land at 125-135 knots, but if you try that in BMS your bird will fall like a brick, so you naturally can’t make the final with less then 150-160 knots, but this makes your slope at leeser angle then recommended. You can metagame and calculate when to stall the plane and hit the deck and 130, but this will not really take the shape of a glide slope….
I think F14 FM does not allow manual flaps in BMS 4.32. It still flies very good and comfortable, but the stall speed is a little bit higher as u wrote. It would be perhaps nice to allow manual flaps feature in the next update (would it help without FM edit?). I was able to land really slowly in F4AF on carrier IIRC.
BTW AI controled F15 (ACE) flies sluggish, slowly and on minimal almost all the time in BMS 4.32. It is easy to achive gun-kill ten times in a row (I did it few minutes ago using just laptop keyboard). I flied F-14 and Mig-23 with the same result (Mig-23 is less manoeuvrable, but has manually controled flaps)…
AI oponent tends to crash into the ground even over very flat terrain (so I set 5k feet modified TopGun rule for myself). It is like in OF…I look forward to fly in your F-14 pit one day mykinge :headb::headb::headb:
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Please don’t turn this beautiful mod discussion into an F-14 vs XX or F-14 isn’t a dogfighter. I will never try to argue this beyond the man in the cockpit, but what folks don’t realise is that the NATOPS section covering flight performance for any variant of the F-14 is still classified-NOT TALKING ABOUT THE GENERAL F-14 NATOPS here. It doesn’t hold some dark secret that says the F-14 travels at MACH 5 and can sustain 15g turns, but it does include enough to silence anyone who hasn’t read it. Take that for what its worth. If you haven’t seen it, don’t comment on it. If you have seen it, don’t reveal its contents. It always makes me wonder how we will ever hope to have an accurate F-14 sim when the E-M diagrams remain classified.
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I just realized this - as I piloted Flogger very often in various F4 versions in the past, the AC performed quite different according to “manual flaps” enabled/disabled.
For example I was able to hold on dogfight in FF series due to manual flaps against AI F-14 (with F-14 vs AI Mig-23 it was much easier of course). But in F4AF I had problems. AI Tomcat out turned me very often. The flaps setting was the same as in F-16 - automatic (manual flaps disabled). Then I discovered edge flaps override function for F-16 and made a shortcut for it. Since that time I was rather on pair with AI Tomcat when dogfighting at low speed in Flogger(but it was not easy).
So the instant solution for current situation would be this override function activated. I would try it by myself, but i am in hurry ATM.I can remember some pilots turned better than me at Hyperlobby. It was really different. I dont speak about overall better flying, but significant different performance during high G turn (same speed). I started research. I found some other button first (FBW computer restriction switch - it is usefull during spin recovery), but the effect was still too weak. Then I found this “edge flaps override” or something. It made angular fight better, but AC bleeded energy faster of course. I watched dogfight league discussion or something similar later - some pilots argued it is cheat, pilot would not use it in RL due to the airframe damage risk. So I did not use it on Hyperloby, if not consulted with oponent.
But it would be usefull on final with Tomcat I think (right now, no tweaks).BTW I am not against discussion about FM tweaks (ACs, weaponary…), but allways with 3D testing. It is rather an art in my opinion. F4 engine was developed since early-mid 90ths. It is not just about filling right values (T/W, masses, burntimes, drag…). The physical engine of 486-age must be a compromisse. It is not super computer cluster software for molecular dynamics computation. So I am for tweaks + heavy 3D testing / oficial data comparison + real pilot subjective opinion at the end.
BTW2 - for me the biggest problem is not 3-7,5% different performance of the aircraft, but AI behavior.
If the plane is pure energy fighter, It should fly/try energy fight. If it has great nose pointing performance, it should make clever timed strong turns. If it is low level strike fighter bomber, it should fly low and supersonic… (so it is not just about FM tweaks necessarily).
A.S. once mentioned his B-1 AI tweak - this is the near future, a lot of space for overall tweaks IMHO. -
I think F14 FM does not allow manual flaps in BMS 4.32. It still flies very good and comfortable, but the stall speed is a little bit higher as u wrote. It would be perhaps nice to allow manual flaps feature in the next update (would it help without FM edit?). I was able to land really slowly in F4AF on carrier IIRC.
BTW AI controled F15 (ACE) flies sluggish, slowly and on minimal almost all the time in BMS 4.32. It is easy to achive gun-kill ten times in a row (I did it few minutes ago using just laptop keyboard). I flied F-14 and Mig-23 with the same result (Mig-23 is less manoeuvrable, but has manually controled flaps)…
AI oponent tends to crash into the ground even over very flat terrain (so I set 5k feet modified TopGun rule for myself). It is like in OF…I look forward to fly in your F-14 pit one day mykinge :headb::headb::headb:
I agree on the flaps issue, but even without manual flaps, a loaded Cat should be able the approach the deck at 130-135kts. With the flaps i think the standard landing speed was 125kts or so.
As for the AI flying the F-15 in a sluggish way, true….and i have seen it when the AI flies the Flankers too. IMO the AI “overturns” with the Eagle and bleeds the airspeed way too fast, leaving it dead in the “water”. I guess a similar case to what an inexperienced pilot would do. Molni had an idea, of actually limiting the F-15 AoA when AI driven, to prevent this from happening and i think it might actually work in some instances.
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I agree on the flaps issue, but even without manual flaps, a loaded Cat should be able the approach the deck at 130-135kts. With the flaps i think the standard landing speed was 125kts or so.
As for the AI flying the F-15 in a sluggish way, true….and i have seen it when the AI flies the Flankers too. IMO the AI “overturns” with the Eagle and bleeds the airspeed way too fast, leaving it dead in the “water”. I guess a similar case to what an inexperienced pilot would do. Molni had an idea, of actually limiting the F-15 AoA when AI driven, to prevent this from happening and i think it might actually work in some instances.
at what gross weight?
afaik there are restrictions on landing weights of these birds in real life where in falcon we can come and go as we please with a full munition load and what not, which most of the times mean relatively heavier jets compared to RL.
i am not saying the slow speed characteristics of the FM is spot on for the Tomcat in falcon, however the gross weight has to be considered when making comparison to real life in this case.
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at what gross weight?
afaik there are restrictions on landing weights of these birds in real life where in falcon we can come and go as we please with a full munition load and what not, which most of the times mean relatively heavier jets compared to RL.
i am not saying the slow speed characteristics of the FM is spot on for the Tomcat in falcon, however the gross weight has to be considered when making comparison to real life in this case.
IIRC, 137kts at max trap weight, which should be 54000lbs at a 3.5 degree glide slope. That should allow for about 10000lbs of stores/fuel…
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One ontopic issue. Have anybody ever noticed that in BMS4 Tomcats are in slow constant bank regardless of 100% symmetrical loadout? What can cause this bug?
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I’ve noticed too…always needs trim after take off…I think there is no particular reason, seems like a bug to me.
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One ontopic issue. Have anybody ever noticed that in BMS4 Tomcats are in slow constant bank regardless of 100% symmetrical loadout? What can cause this bug?
I tested this as soon as BMS 4 was released. It’s related to how the Phoenix pallets are loaded on the centerline. If you jettison them you’ll fly straight and level. That’s why it doesn’t affect you in a guns only dogfight. Someone way smarter than me needs to get those pylons centered correctly-as well as fix the alignment of the AIM-7s and AIM-54s .
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After I have launched all the effect won’t disappear. -> If missile weight is the problem after you have used all, the rack remains in the same positon keeping the unbalanced state, just their weights are smaller.
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Has anyone tried flying in clean configuration?
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After I have launched all the effect won’t disappear. -> If missile weight is the problem after you have used all, the rack remains in the same positon keeping the unbalanced state, just their weights are smaller.
Reread what I posted-it’s not related to weapons but the PALLETS (the name for the AIM-54 and bomb “pylons”) You must jettison the pallets to fly straight and level.
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Has anyone tried flying in clean configuration?
Yes in a clean configuration the aircraft flys staright and level.
I finally found it and had it verified in post 14 of the above topic.