Bullseye
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It’s the BE direction as you would see it in the cockpit. Thus if you are west of BE going south-west the BE would be over your left shoulder so expect the tick mark at the 7-8 oclock position. The trainer is accurate in that respect.
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Logically stpt 25 is a system variable for the code, so if this changes whenever it does the system adopts and displays accordingly.
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@jc1:
Thanks for that. It appears that the tick mark shown in the Bullseye Training at http://www.185th.co.uk/squad_info/training/basic_n&b.htm is useless for that training tool. Or am I missing something about the tool?
It’s the BE direction as you would see it in the cockpit. Thus if you are west of BE going south-west the BE would be over your left shoulder so expect the tick mark at the 7-8 oclock position. The trainer is accurate in that respect.
I accept that. But do you agree that you can do the Bullseye training without making use of the tick mark?
Logically stpt 25 is a system variable for the code, so if this changes whenever it does the system adopts and displays accordingly.
I now understand that. But if AI AWACS still uses the original bullseye, why would you change steerpoint 25 during flight–-AWACS won’t know it and you won’t see the AWACS bullseye on your HSD and FCR?
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@jc1:
I accept that. But do you agree that you can do the Bullseye training without making use of the tick mark?
I now understand that. But if AI AWACS still uses the original bullseye, why would you change steerpoint 25 during flight–-AWACS won’t know it and you won’t see the AWACS bullseye on your HSD and FCR?
AWACS will use the variable… so if you change stpt 25 thus the variable then everyone is on the same page and same bullseye.
It’s the same as if you altered the BE in mission planning or before takeoff.In real (not 100% sure) in awacs the operators can operate different packages - flights… so each can have a different BE if that serves better. So every operator uses calls with the specific BE for the package he is assigned.
But this must be used in very large areas… if the zone they are servicing and the package is covered with one BE I believe they just use one for all flights in the package. For SA I believe all calls are heard from all package members (flights) so if each flight has different BE it will be a mess.AWACS doesn’t actually need his BE nor the flights need to know it. The awacs is there to serve the flights and packages… packages don’t need to bother with the awacs BE, they are concerned for their BE. So awacs operators use flights or package BE so that all involved have the same reference and SA is clear to all.
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@jc1:
I accept that. But do you agree that you can do the Bullseye training without making use of the tick mark?
I now understand that. But if AI AWACS still uses the original bullseye, why would you change steerpoint 25 during flight–-AWACS won’t know it and you won’t see the AWACS bullseye on your HSD and FCR?
Certainly, the heading displayed by the nose of the plane in the picture is effectively the same information and it’s what I used because my mental plotting board was north-up. If you notice that it’s exactly 12 oc, 3 oc, 6 oc, 9 oc since you glance there anyway you might save a second or two of brain time or not depending on your process. I think the trainer is a bit unrealistic because of the pace and that you don’t have a running idea of your own bulls but if you can select which of the 4-directions and even start to evaluate BFM vs. AIM-120 ranges that’s a good skill. I think recognizing AIM-9 or 20mm ranges is ridiculous though.
You ask why. Why… if it seems like a good reason at the time using your tactical creativity. I can’t remember the last time I changed it (maybe to remedy a bad DTC). If you can’t think of a good reason to change it, don’t. I don’t think it’s a magic secret you’ve been missing out on.
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AWACS will use the variable….
That’s not the case subsequent to takeoff. If you change the bullseye DURING FLIGHT nobody in your flight or package will be aware of the changed bullseye. Neither will artificial intelligence (AI) AWACS be aware of the changed bullseye. So if you “Request Picture”, AI AWACS will give bearing and range based on bullseye PRIOR to takeoff (including any changes in cockpit PRIOR to takeoff). After AI AWACS gives the picture, you won’t have the bullseye related to the AI AWACS call on your HSD or FCR.
So I still ask: why would you change bullseye IN FLIGHT? Now Frederf, in post #65, says change it if it improves your tactical creativity. I’m still learning this plane, so I haven’t come up with any tactically creative ways for changing the bullseye DURING FLIGHT. Did you?
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Certainly, the heading displayed by the nose of the plane in the picture is effectively the same information and it’s what I used because my mental plotting board was north-up. If you notice that it’s exactly 12 oc, 3 oc, 6 oc, 9 oc since you glance there anyway you might save a second or two of brain time or not depending on your process. I think the trainer is a bit unrealistic because of the pace and that you don’t have a running idea of your own bulls but if you can select which of the 4-directions and even start to evaluate BFM vs. AIM-120 ranges that’s a good skill. I think recognizing AIM-9 or 20mm ranges is ridiculous though.
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Now I can stop sweating. Thanks for putting the Bullseye Trainer in some kind of perspective because I was thinking I’ll never get good at this, even at the “Easy” level.
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I am no expert; but isn’t one reason to change BE in flight to increase precision in for example a CAS situation? Put a new bulseye close to an assigned CAS box; so that a FAC or someone else can assign targets using BE with much more precision than would be the case if the BE is 100s of miles away?
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I am no expert; but isn’t one reason to change BE in flight to increase precision in for example a CAS situation? Put a new bulseye close to an assigned CAS box; so that a FAC or someone else can assign targets using BE with much more precision than would be the case if the BE is 100s of miles away?
Correct. But IRL, CAS mission are rather using GARS (grid system).
@jc1:
If you change the bullseye DURING FLIGHT nobody in your flight or package will be aware of the changed bullseye.
Why not? You have a radio… and you are supposed to brief your mission. Each bull has its own name (I.E: COCO ; TOYOTA ; ROCKY ; … ) Maybe during a mission you could be re-assigned to another CAP station. Maybe another bulls will be more suitable/practical to be used.
Neither will artificial intelligence (AI) AWACS be aware of the changed bullseye. So if you “Request Picture”, AI AWACS will give bearing and range based on bullseye PRIOR to takeoff
Correct. This is why we are saying that it is rather valid for MP session …
So I still ask: why would you change bullseye IN FLIGHT?
Now you know.
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Dee-Jay is correct on multiple bullseye…particularly for CAS.
+1.
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I’ll take a stab at replying to a thread here
Let’s keep one other thing in mind here… Just pointing your nose at the bullseye position of a contact may not get you where you really want to be.
Your posit BE 360 30
Bandit posit BE 270 40That sets up a nice 3,4,5 right triangle for our illustration purposes.
You are 50 nm away from bandit.
And Bandit is 180+60 (240) degrees from you.
So that would be stated BANDIT BRAA 240 50Here’s the problem, if you crank yourself around to heading 240, and roll your cursors out to 50nm
you probably won’t see anything (if the bandit is fighter sized, and if you are in an F16)
So you just track in on 240, and 15 miles later (about 2 minutes) you see a RADAR contact way off to the right side of your scope,
or maybe you don’t see it at all, if you have your azimuths narrowed in.That’s not where AWACS reported that guy… is that the right guy???
You can just ask for an update from AWACS at this point, and that’s pretty much the only option available to you.In this case, the bandit was tracking due north.
So as you flew southwest toward the last known position, he flew north, toward the right side of your scope.
If you want to intercept that guy in this case, you need to be doing something like a heading of 280-290,
(flying 240 takes you to where he WAS at the time of the last awacs hack, not where he will be in 7 minutes after you have flown 50 miles) …and since it’s a beam intercept you’re going to need a hefty speed advantage.You can use the TE editor to setup a situation like this for demonstration.
I don’t think i’ve ever heard the falcon AWACS give track direction.
A human awacs might do that for you if they are sharp. (maybe)
But a sharp human awacs can probably just give you a cutoff heading, with a commit callI also don’t know exactly how the falcon awacs works, but i’ve built TE’s where there I was, and there was a bad guy (labels on, I can see him)… within what I consider factor range, and there’s an awacs, on station well within range… Hey, awacs, picture. “nothing’s up”. Seriously???
I have never been a fan of falcon’s awacs, but i suppose it’s better than nothing Flying against air threats without one available at all sure sucks.
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I’m a nerd, so here you go (attached tac file, korea)
**Hmm how to attach a tac file??? I just put a .txt on the end of it. So rename it to intercept.tac in order to run it? I’ll look in other forums for how to do this a ‘right’ way?If you let it play (x16) without clicking “FLY”, you will see the red air fly right past the blue air.
Right when you get in, you are heading about 235.
Call awacs and ask for pic, and you’ll get 270/40 (right over your next steerpoint).
What you won’t get from awacs is bandit “track north”If you fly to 270/40 (heading 235ish), by the time you are contact, the bad guy is nearly off your scope, or is off your scope. If you turn on labels you can watch him track right across your screen.
For a cutoff, try hdg 275 and 375kts immediately after getting into the sim.
Be careful though and don’t spike him, as that will make him react (away from you)
It seems ok to bug him in TWS, although a few times i saw him do some ‘crazy ivan’ kind of stuff. I did it once with my radar in standby just getting awacs updates quiet often, and he got to about 10 miles before he reacted.Even if he reacts, you should still see that you were on an intercept path before he turned…
Too bad we can’t get some “dumb” bandits that just fly completely unawares (dumb and happy). Maybe something old that doesn’t have rwr might do that??? i wonder if bms models it… maybe i’ll test that next
I’ve also thought it was a bummer, that for the first day newbie, you are flying against opponents with live weapons. I remember my first day in falcon (4.0) was "oh cool… what’s that… boom me exploding) Not exactly “fun”, heh You can de-missile them but I don’t think there is any way to take away their guns?
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Something I like to do when I need a semi-cooperative target it to fly the Takeoff training mission…I take off as Dash 2, and fly the sequence backwards to meet my lead head-on at some point around the course. It’s not like you get multiple passes, but it’s useful. Or you can chase him at a distance, or cut corners and intercept him. At least you know he won’t shoot you.
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Yeh, my first sim back in the day was good ole Janes FA.
It had a setting on AI to “Ignore” opposing players.
So if you gave it a flight path to nav, and set it to ignore, it would just go nav that flight path.
Pull right up behind it, spike it, sled it right into a shot, whatever…Not fair, but VERY useful for training purposes.
Also useful for training purposes is G-inhibiting.
So when you are first teaching someone turn entry, it’s a lot easier against something that only pull maybe a 3G level 180 degree turn, at first. Then you can progressively step it up. When everything is just full bore from the first day the curve is pretty steep. You can get a little bit of this effect using heavies, but getting them to terminate and reset just doesn’t work. The only way i’ve successfully done it is with a human flying the adversary, for training purposes.Also handy when you have a human is putting shields on, so you can take actual shots… reset and go again.
All good things.
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The Nav and Timing Training mission in FAF was another good one for me in the beginning. I had a tendency to balloon my turns, dropping down and flying that one at low-level between the cloud deck and the ground went a long way to not only helping me learn to keep my turns level but also to broaden my HUD scan and check up my G’s during my TAC turns. Just altering the objective of a number of the Training missions can make them instructive in all sorts of ways not spelled out by the mission title, IMO.