Bullseye
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@jc1:
What’s the reason for setting the new bullseye?
Imagine an MP session with human AWACS and several packages working on very different areas. If one bulls is located in Haeju, and you are working over Chonngjin, you might be interested by another bulls located closer to your area of interest.
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If you are referring to the little mark on the circle in the bottom left corner of the radar or HSD, it points toward bullseye. The original falcon manual describes bullseye on page 21-15 (432).
Thanks
@Frederf:By coded name I would think.
No, if you move STPT 25 then in-cockpit display moves BZ indication to new 25 position.
AI do know new BZ location… if you set it in 2D map.
What I’m hearing is that AI knows BZ location if it’s set in UI(2D map), but AI does not know the BZ that is set in the pit at stpt 25 during flight, although AI still knows the BZ set at UI. That leaves 2 questions.
1. So why set a new BZ in the pit at stpt 25 during flight?
Edit:
Just saw post #54. What is your answer if in single player, not MP?2. If you set a BZ in the pit at stpt 25 during flight, which BZ, the UI one or the new one, shows up on the HSD and FCR?
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Just to be clear (I’m about 95% sure), the BE set in the UI is stpt 25 on the data cartridge. IOW, if you change stpt 25 in the pit, it will change THE Bullseye for you (and anyone else who makes the same change).
Why you’d set the BE in the UI, presumably at briefing, and change it in the pit, I don’t know.
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Just to be clear (I’m about 95% sure), the BE set in the UI is stpt 25 on the data cartridge. IOW, if you change stpt 25 in the pit, it will change THE Bullseye for you (and anyone else who makes the same change).
Why you’d set the BE in the UI, presumably at briefing, and change it in the pit, I don’t know.
I’m clear about setting the BE in the UI. Thanks. But really would like to know the answers to the 2 questions in my post #55.
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@jc1:
I’m clear about setting the BE in the UI. Thanks. But really would like to know the answers to the 2 questions in my post #55.
Yes, the answer for your Q2 follows from that. If the UI BZ is stpt 25 and you change stpt 25 in the pit, you change your BZ in the HSD, FCR, etc. If you change the location of stpt #1 in the pit, does it not change all references to stpt #1 on the HSD, etc?
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Yes, the answer for your Q2 follows from that. If the UI BZ is stpt 25 and you change stpt 25 in the pit, you change your BZ in the HSD, FCR, etc. If you change the location of stpt #1 in the pit, does it not change all references to stpt #1 on the HSD, etc?
OK, that means the blue BZ circle on the HSD and FCR corresponds to the changed stpt 25. Then AWACS gives a call related to the original BZ, which you don’t see anymore on HSD or FCR –- you see the changed BZ. So why change the BZ during flight when AWACS calls are based on the original bullseye and you can’t see that AWACS bullseye on the HSD or FCR? I know you said in post #56 that you don’t know, but maybe someone else knows.
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If you are referring to the little mark on the circle in the bottom left corner of the radar or HSD, it points toward bullseye. The original falcon manual describes bullseye on page 21-15 (432).
Thanks for that. It appears that the tick mark shown in the Bullseye Training at http://www.185th.co.uk/squad_info/training/basic_n&b.htm is useless for that training tool. Or am I missing something about the tool?
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It’s the BE direction as you would see it in the cockpit. Thus if you are west of BE going south-west the BE would be over your left shoulder so expect the tick mark at the 7-8 oclock position. The trainer is accurate in that respect.
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Logically stpt 25 is a system variable for the code, so if this changes whenever it does the system adopts and displays accordingly.
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@jc1:
Thanks for that. It appears that the tick mark shown in the Bullseye Training at http://www.185th.co.uk/squad_info/training/basic_n&b.htm is useless for that training tool. Or am I missing something about the tool?
It’s the BE direction as you would see it in the cockpit. Thus if you are west of BE going south-west the BE would be over your left shoulder so expect the tick mark at the 7-8 oclock position. The trainer is accurate in that respect.
I accept that. But do you agree that you can do the Bullseye training without making use of the tick mark?
Logically stpt 25 is a system variable for the code, so if this changes whenever it does the system adopts and displays accordingly.
I now understand that. But if AI AWACS still uses the original bullseye, why would you change steerpoint 25 during flight–-AWACS won’t know it and you won’t see the AWACS bullseye on your HSD and FCR?
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@jc1:
I accept that. But do you agree that you can do the Bullseye training without making use of the tick mark?
I now understand that. But if AI AWACS still uses the original bullseye, why would you change steerpoint 25 during flight–-AWACS won’t know it and you won’t see the AWACS bullseye on your HSD and FCR?
AWACS will use the variable… so if you change stpt 25 thus the variable then everyone is on the same page and same bullseye.
It’s the same as if you altered the BE in mission planning or before takeoff.In real (not 100% sure) in awacs the operators can operate different packages - flights… so each can have a different BE if that serves better. So every operator uses calls with the specific BE for the package he is assigned.
But this must be used in very large areas… if the zone they are servicing and the package is covered with one BE I believe they just use one for all flights in the package. For SA I believe all calls are heard from all package members (flights) so if each flight has different BE it will be a mess.AWACS doesn’t actually need his BE nor the flights need to know it. The awacs is there to serve the flights and packages… packages don’t need to bother with the awacs BE, they are concerned for their BE. So awacs operators use flights or package BE so that all involved have the same reference and SA is clear to all.
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@jc1:
I accept that. But do you agree that you can do the Bullseye training without making use of the tick mark?
I now understand that. But if AI AWACS still uses the original bullseye, why would you change steerpoint 25 during flight–-AWACS won’t know it and you won’t see the AWACS bullseye on your HSD and FCR?
Certainly, the heading displayed by the nose of the plane in the picture is effectively the same information and it’s what I used because my mental plotting board was north-up. If you notice that it’s exactly 12 oc, 3 oc, 6 oc, 9 oc since you glance there anyway you might save a second or two of brain time or not depending on your process. I think the trainer is a bit unrealistic because of the pace and that you don’t have a running idea of your own bulls but if you can select which of the 4-directions and even start to evaluate BFM vs. AIM-120 ranges that’s a good skill. I think recognizing AIM-9 or 20mm ranges is ridiculous though.
You ask why. Why… if it seems like a good reason at the time using your tactical creativity. I can’t remember the last time I changed it (maybe to remedy a bad DTC). If you can’t think of a good reason to change it, don’t. I don’t think it’s a magic secret you’ve been missing out on.
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AWACS will use the variable….
That’s not the case subsequent to takeoff. If you change the bullseye DURING FLIGHT nobody in your flight or package will be aware of the changed bullseye. Neither will artificial intelligence (AI) AWACS be aware of the changed bullseye. So if you “Request Picture”, AI AWACS will give bearing and range based on bullseye PRIOR to takeoff (including any changes in cockpit PRIOR to takeoff). After AI AWACS gives the picture, you won’t have the bullseye related to the AI AWACS call on your HSD or FCR.
So I still ask: why would you change bullseye IN FLIGHT? Now Frederf, in post #65, says change it if it improves your tactical creativity. I’m still learning this plane, so I haven’t come up with any tactically creative ways for changing the bullseye DURING FLIGHT. Did you?
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Certainly, the heading displayed by the nose of the plane in the picture is effectively the same information and it’s what I used because my mental plotting board was north-up. If you notice that it’s exactly 12 oc, 3 oc, 6 oc, 9 oc since you glance there anyway you might save a second or two of brain time or not depending on your process. I think the trainer is a bit unrealistic because of the pace and that you don’t have a running idea of your own bulls but if you can select which of the 4-directions and even start to evaluate BFM vs. AIM-120 ranges that’s a good skill. I think recognizing AIM-9 or 20mm ranges is ridiculous though.
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Now I can stop sweating. Thanks for putting the Bullseye Trainer in some kind of perspective because I was thinking I’ll never get good at this, even at the “Easy” level.
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I am no expert; but isn’t one reason to change BE in flight to increase precision in for example a CAS situation? Put a new bulseye close to an assigned CAS box; so that a FAC or someone else can assign targets using BE with much more precision than would be the case if the BE is 100s of miles away?
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I am no expert; but isn’t one reason to change BE in flight to increase precision in for example a CAS situation? Put a new bulseye close to an assigned CAS box; so that a FAC or someone else can assign targets using BE with much more precision than would be the case if the BE is 100s of miles away?
Correct. But IRL, CAS mission are rather using GARS (grid system).
@jc1:
If you change the bullseye DURING FLIGHT nobody in your flight or package will be aware of the changed bullseye.
Why not? You have a radio… and you are supposed to brief your mission. Each bull has its own name (I.E: COCO ; TOYOTA ; ROCKY ; … ) Maybe during a mission you could be re-assigned to another CAP station. Maybe another bulls will be more suitable/practical to be used.
Neither will artificial intelligence (AI) AWACS be aware of the changed bullseye. So if you “Request Picture”, AI AWACS will give bearing and range based on bullseye PRIOR to takeoff
Correct. This is why we are saying that it is rather valid for MP session …
So I still ask: why would you change bullseye IN FLIGHT?
Now you know.
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Dee-Jay is correct on multiple bullseye…particularly for CAS.
+1.
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I’ll take a stab at replying to a thread here
Let’s keep one other thing in mind here… Just pointing your nose at the bullseye position of a contact may not get you where you really want to be.
Your posit BE 360 30
Bandit posit BE 270 40That sets up a nice 3,4,5 right triangle for our illustration purposes.
You are 50 nm away from bandit.
And Bandit is 180+60 (240) degrees from you.
So that would be stated BANDIT BRAA 240 50Here’s the problem, if you crank yourself around to heading 240, and roll your cursors out to 50nm
you probably won’t see anything (if the bandit is fighter sized, and if you are in an F16)
So you just track in on 240, and 15 miles later (about 2 minutes) you see a RADAR contact way off to the right side of your scope,
or maybe you don’t see it at all, if you have your azimuths narrowed in.That’s not where AWACS reported that guy… is that the right guy???
You can just ask for an update from AWACS at this point, and that’s pretty much the only option available to you.In this case, the bandit was tracking due north.
So as you flew southwest toward the last known position, he flew north, toward the right side of your scope.
If you want to intercept that guy in this case, you need to be doing something like a heading of 280-290,
(flying 240 takes you to where he WAS at the time of the last awacs hack, not where he will be in 7 minutes after you have flown 50 miles) …and since it’s a beam intercept you’re going to need a hefty speed advantage.You can use the TE editor to setup a situation like this for demonstration.
I don’t think i’ve ever heard the falcon AWACS give track direction.
A human awacs might do that for you if they are sharp. (maybe)
But a sharp human awacs can probably just give you a cutoff heading, with a commit callI also don’t know exactly how the falcon awacs works, but i’ve built TE’s where there I was, and there was a bad guy (labels on, I can see him)… within what I consider factor range, and there’s an awacs, on station well within range… Hey, awacs, picture. “nothing’s up”. Seriously???
I have never been a fan of falcon’s awacs, but i suppose it’s better than nothing Flying against air threats without one available at all sure sucks.
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I’m a nerd, so here you go (attached tac file, korea)
**Hmm how to attach a tac file??? I just put a .txt on the end of it. So rename it to intercept.tac in order to run it? I’ll look in other forums for how to do this a ‘right’ way?If you let it play (x16) without clicking “FLY”, you will see the red air fly right past the blue air.
Right when you get in, you are heading about 235.
Call awacs and ask for pic, and you’ll get 270/40 (right over your next steerpoint).
What you won’t get from awacs is bandit “track north”If you fly to 270/40 (heading 235ish), by the time you are contact, the bad guy is nearly off your scope, or is off your scope. If you turn on labels you can watch him track right across your screen.
For a cutoff, try hdg 275 and 375kts immediately after getting into the sim.
Be careful though and don’t spike him, as that will make him react (away from you)
It seems ok to bug him in TWS, although a few times i saw him do some ‘crazy ivan’ kind of stuff. I did it once with my radar in standby just getting awacs updates quiet often, and he got to about 10 miles before he reacted.Even if he reacts, you should still see that you were on an intercept path before he turned…
Too bad we can’t get some “dumb” bandits that just fly completely unawares (dumb and happy). Maybe something old that doesn’t have rwr might do that??? i wonder if bms models it… maybe i’ll test that next
I’ve also thought it was a bummer, that for the first day newbie, you are flying against opponents with live weapons. I remember my first day in falcon (4.0) was "oh cool… what’s that… boom me exploding) Not exactly “fun”, heh You can de-missile them but I don’t think there is any way to take away their guns?