Why Virtual Reality for BMS would improve the experience by order of magnitudes.
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I have been aware of VR since around 1990 when it was about to be the next big thing.
We’re a lot further on now than we were then of course. I don’t doubt that todays VR would be ideal for a non complex flight sim. The issue isn’t whether VR works, it’s whether it works for a complex sim. And when I say works with it, I mean whether it works without having to use workarounds.
I have no doubt that will happen. And when it does it will be a very good thing. The technology to have proper three dimensional finger tracking is already out there. However the only package I’m aware of currently that can do that seems to be forward facing only. But when you can match up a VR headset with the ability to reach out and touch buttons and rotate dials that will be when VR is truly compatible with complex simulations such as BMS.
I don’t think anyone in this thread is against VR, because it’s not compatible with their setups, or for any other reason.
I do wish that people who are invested in VR would dial some of their enthusiasm back. I don’t think it does anyone any favours to turn the discussion about it into a confrontation.
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If the virtual space matches up with your physical space, you’ll be able to use the MFD’s without much trouble.
I’ve tried a similar setup, at an arcade hall, with a pair of guns which had trackers and were visible in the VR environment. It’s not nearly as easy as that. It’s slow and error prone, especially in stressful situations. When starting out, with plenty of time to do things and no stress it was easy enough to switch guns, put one down and pick the other up. When the monsters came running it was a different matter. Nearly impossible. It got messy. Nice adrenaline kick though.
My experience is that we rely a lot on being able to see ourselves, even if only out of the corner of our eyes. A quick glance, often subconscious, helps us put our finger exactly where we wanted it to be. That is not possible in a VR setup. Not yet, anyway. Perhaps in five years. Or with an AR setup.
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I don’t think anyone in this thread is against VR, because it’s not compatible with their setups, or for any other reason.
On the contrary. I didn’t spend a fortune of my own money on a VR set because I am against VR. It’s wonderful.
But the limitations of VR have been the same for a decade now. The latest and greatest VR sets are incremental improvements, not game changers. They still suffer from too much latency (though that is a lot better with the new Rift), too low resolution (MUCH too low resolution, still) and lack of 6DOF precision. But they’re amazing for a lot of applications. One of my favourite pastimes used to be Drakan, a dragon flying simulator, which turned absolutely astonishing in VR. And some of the old WWI flight sims really gave a fantastic feeling of immersion.
For something like an F-16, I just can’t find a decent way to manage inputs while in a VR environment. Managing avionics under stress is tricky enough as it is. When not being able to reach out and use controls I just can’t handle it using a mouse, especially not with the reduced fidelity of a VR set. Perhaps that is just me.
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Ok, but would you guys be interested in a custom flight helmet style mounted VR that allowed you to look under at your cockpit/peripherals like NVGs are used IRL?
Nosepeeking is a workaround. I’m more interested in something like the “mixed reality” video I linked on my post #106. Also, aren’t the “seals” on VR gear supposed to 1) hold the displays in place and 2) block out other non-video distractions? A completely open VR setup would be interesting to try out, but is still a workaround.
Can you detail exactly what of this you couldn’t do blindfolded, and exactly why? I see no reason for why you’d need to see either your mouse or keyboard in the scenario Wolf said you can do blindfolded. No insults intended, if you can’t flip the Missile/Dogfight switch and click the Emergency Jettison without looking at your HOTAS and mouse first, you should actually see a doctor about that.
Go in your car, close your eyes, and try to adjust the airconditioning or change the radio station (assuming this control isn’t on the steering wheel). Fiddle around with the aircon settings (blowing to the feet, or to the windows, etc.). If there are a few buttons on the dash, try to see how accurate you are at hitting a particular button. You CAN do all of this with your eyes closed, sure. Then try it again the “normal” way which is to sneak a quick glance, reach for the control, operate the control, and maybe sneak another quick glance to verify it’s set correctly. And this is fiddling with physical controls.
I use a touchscreen. How accurate do you think I can be intentionally touching a specific point on the screen while blindfolded?
So this thread is really just actually back to people with MFDs, apps, etc. (a minority) telling us that VR isn’t working because its incompatible with their setups?
Yes, because that is still the issue with VR. The way our MFDs/apps/etc. improve the way I interact with the cockpit outweighs what VR brings to the table for me. As I said many times, if all you need is on the HOTAS, such as in Elite Dangerous + Voice Attack, then VR is undeniably a step forward. However, in BMS, with the need to interact with charts, data cards, checklists… even if you don’t own a single Cougar MFD or touchscreen, even if all you have is TrackIR, HOTAS, rudders, keyboard, mouse… you will still want to interact with printed material. That’s where VR gets in the way.
Unless, of course, you only fly mostly SP or in small groups, or just dogfights, or fly BMS more like Ace Combat than an actual study sim and trying to do things as real as you can.
You dont use the mouse for the operations described instead, you press the ICP buttons and punch the emergency jettison button. Obviously if you dont have those physical parts in front of you, you will find it hard to do blindfolded. Touchscreen or mouse.
Unfortunately, I am right handed so to use the mouse, I have to use my right hand. Using the left hand just ups the difficulty 1,000% However, with a touchscreen, I can manipulate the ICP or other stuff with my left hand, as intended. Even in NOE.
Seems that way to me too. I doubt VR will be forced on anyone. If you’d rather go for the IRL immersion than VR immersion then cool. Likewise, VR rather than IRL? Also cool.
I hope the devs will see the popularity of VR in other cockpit sims and consider adding support in BMS. DCS is stunning in the Rift. Is it perfect? No. Far from it (personally think CV1 should have been called DK3…). You can’t read any labels for switches in the cockpit and the MFDs are slightly hard to read, same goes for the smaller gauges. It’s still an amazing thing to experience.
I don’t see any harm in people registering their votes for VR to be considered. Even with all of the concerns & issues that will need to be worked out, surely it’s worth at least thinking about the feature? At least then we can all work together to resolve any of the issues that might crop up.
I’m not saying VR is being forced on anyone. I’m not denying VR is cool. However, what’s happening here is exactly what you are talking about –- we have identified a concern/issue with VR and so far, there doesn’t seem to be a resolution aside from calling us out for having a different simpit setup.
If there is a poll from the devs about VR integration, my vote will be to include VR, but maybe at a lower priority. That still doesn’t mean that the concern/issue I have identified will have been resolved.
Also, consider this: if the people who have MFDs, apps, etc. are a minority, how many do you think will be going with VR considering the cost of the VR and the hardware required? How would you justify the time spent on integrating VR and sorting out all other issues vs. the actual number of people that will use it? Now unless one of the devs make this his/her/their pet project…
Yep. One solution to the MFD problem is putting the MFD’s where they physically exist in the cockpit. Then the screen view of your pilot (BMS MFD’s) would match up with the actual position of your MFDs on your desk. In BMS you still wouldn’t necessarily see your virtual hands, but that isn’t required. Just the same as you can close your eyes, extend your arms out to your sides, and still manage to touch your finger to your nose without looking. Your brain knows where your body is. If the virtual space matches up with your physical space, you’ll be able to use the MFD’s without much trouble.
The brain knows where your body is, so it knows where your finger is in relation to your nose. It does not know where your finger is in relation to your MFD. Do the car challenge I mentioned above and honestly tell me how accurate you were with manipulating the controls.
Have you actually tried building a cockpit? Do you know how hard it is to put the MFD at the right place above your knees, at the right angle? You do know the front console is not totally vertical, right? To put the MFD where it is in the real cockpit just so that it works with VR seems an awful lot of work, especially if the subject in question only has a computer, VR, and HOTAS. Even if you manage to put the MFD in the right place, how many do you think sit like an F-16 pilot? Can you hit an MFD that looks like it’s above your knee with the “virtual you” sitting at a 30-degree incline and the “real you” sitting in an upright office chair?
There are plenty of ways VR can work, and plenty of other games which will use VR other than BMS. The more people who buy into VR, the more software titles you’ll see either upgrade to support it, or include it from the start.
VR works. It even works in BMS. However, it’s just not compatible with BMS for some of us that fly in a particular manner and need to access other input devices. “Working” and “compatibility” are two different things. Talking about VR compatibility with other games is useless here as this is the BMS forum and we’re discussing VR in terms of using it in BMS.
I have been aware of VR since around 1990 when it was about to be the next big thing.
We’re a lot further on now than we were then of course. I don’t doubt that todays VR would be ideal for a non complex flight sim. The issue isn’t whether VR works, it’s whether it works for a complex sim. And when I say works with it, I mean whether it works without having to use workarounds.
I have no doubt that will happen. And when it does it will be a very good thing. The technology to have proper three dimensional finger tracking is already out there. However the only package I’m aware of currently that can do that seems to be forward facing only. But when you can match up a VR headset with the ability to reach out and touch buttons and rotate dials that will be when VR is truly compatible with complex simulations such as BMS.
I don’t think anyone in this thread is against VR, because it’s not compatible with their setups, or for any other reason.
I do wish that people who are invested in VR would dial some of their enthusiasm back. I don’t think it does anyone any favours to turn the discussion about it into a confrontation.
Thank you supanova! Well said! Indeed, I am not against VR nor am I telling people what to do with the money that’s burning a hole in their pocket! However, what we have now isn’t what I’m looking for and I’ve weighed the pros and cons and have decided that with my current setup, VR will take away more than give back, so it is incompatible with how I like to fly and what my needs are for my sims. Given the cost of VR (and note that my PC is considered VR-ready), I’m willing to wait for the tech to mature a bit more rather than having to “make-do” with workarounds.
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Yeah I have literally zero issues adjusting any of those things in a car unless it’s one of the first times I’m driving it.
Again, OK, a few people have apps on iPads and such, some printed out charts, MFDs, etc. Most don’t. Most people have no issues memorizing check lists, just like IRL. I mostly play in the ITO, there you’ve got the option of having kneeboards in the virtual cockpit displaying info for different airfields.
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Just because you personally can mess with your settings while flying low level, does not mean you should. This is something detailed quite well in a number of AFIs.
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Yeah I have literally zero issues adjusting any of those things in a car unless it’s one of the first times I’m driving it.
Blind folded? When was the last time you tried that? For that matter, what on earth prompted you to try it? I can’t do that blind folded, and I have driven the same model car for nearly five years now.
Again, OK, a few people have apps on iPads and such, some printed out charts, MFDs, etc. Most don’t. Most people have no issues memorizing check lists, just like IRL. I mostly play in the ITO, there you’ve got the option of having kneeboards in the virtual cockpit displaying info for different airfields.
You should never work from a memorized check list. The whole POINT of a check list is to check the things you do off. I never trust my memory with things like that. Not at work, not at play, definitely not when I’m getting ready to fly a military jet, even if it’s a simulated one.
And the kneeboards are pretty much useless in a VR environment. A simple page of text is impossible to read comfortably, even with the most modern VR headsets. The resolution is much too low.
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Just because you personally can mess with your settings while flying low level, does not mean you should. This is something detailed quite well in a number of AFIs.
When your alternative is to run a very real risk of getting shot down, you mess with your settings while flying low level. Unless you enjoy being shot down more, of course.
Either way, the whole point is that inputs and outputs with higher fidelity allow me to handle a lot more stress and keep operating at decent efficiency and proficiency. VR removes a lot of fidelity in output, and pretty much all fidelity in input, and that is a cost I do not see nearly enough benefit to be worth paying. If you do, run VR all you want, I won’t try to stop you. And maybe VR sets and improvements in input systems will change all this and remove the obstacles I find to using VR in a complex sim environment within a few years. I would love if that happens!
But I still find it to be a waste of developer resources to focus on VR at this stage. VR simply isn’t good enough to improve the sim experience of BMS. Not yet.
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The system shooting at you has a moderate Pk. The ground has a 100% Pk. You are looking outside the cockpit in the low level environment.
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Wait, you think RL fighter pilots bring a bunch of manuals that they open to read checklists mid flight for everything from takeoff to FENCE in to dropping bombs?
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Wait, you think RL fighter pilots bring a bunch of manuals that they open to read checklists mid flight for everything from takeoff to FENCE in to dropping bombs?
Full manuals no, checklists sure. Combat checklists are memorized (hence acronym like FENCE ), but it doesnt hurt to have checklists for rare emergencies and stuff, if you have the time to check. And information on terrains, frequency, etc. is also useful to have.
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The system shooting at you has a moderate Pk. The ground has a 100% Pk. You are looking outside the cockpit in the low level environment.
Exactly. Which is why reaching for the mouse will kill you, while pushing a button won’t.
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Wait, you think RL fighter pilots bring a bunch of manuals that they open to read checklists mid flight for everything from takeoff to FENCE in to dropping bombs?
They bring checklists, yes. And they use them when they are in non-combat, complex procedures. That’s what the knee boards are for. And yes, definitely for takeoff. If you miss something then, you’re quite likely to die. No matter how cocky you are, that is a strong imperative to use a checklist. I also always keep approach plates, frequency lists and notes on the mission handy - along with a white board I can use for notes and off the cuff calculations. No, not everyone does that, but if I don’t have that, I can’t operate the aircraft properly. Call it a failing if you like.
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Exactly. Which is why reaching for the mouse will kill you, while pushing a button won’t.
Its why you dont reach for a mouse. Comes back down to the essence of the discussion - some folks reckon VR is inherently faulty, because it doesnt work well with a mouse and keyboard.
The hilarious thing is in your example, using a TIR or POV hat instead of VR, you still cant use the mouse to click the ICP while looking back to check six XD
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Full manuals no, checklists sure. Combat checklists are memorized (hence acronym like FENCE ), but it doesnt hurt to have checklists for rare emergencies and stuff, if you have the time to check. And information on terrains, frequency, etc. is also useful to have.
Full manuals, yes. You should have a full -1 with you in the cockpit when flying. Thats actually the reason section three has the highlighted borders - to make it easy to find the section in flight.
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I hope the BMS team are able to integrate VR into this game……
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I hope the BMS team are able to integrate VR into this game……
If BMS develops a game, they probably will.
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The hilarious thing is in your example, using a TIR or POV hat instead of VR, you still cant use the mouse to click the ICP while looking back to check six XD
I’ve said from the start that the mouse is probably the worst input method available in BMS. I stand by that, and fail to see what is “hilarious” in that my stance is consistent.
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Also, consider this: if the people who have MFDs, apps, etc. are a minority, how many do you think will be going with VR considering the cost of the VR and the hardware required? How would you justify the time spent on integrating VR and sorting out all other issues vs. the actual number of people that will use it? Now unless one of the devs make this his/her/their pet project….
I have MFDs, apps etc and a Rift so I suppose I can’t adequately answer your question. I haven’t spent anywhere near the amount of money or time on my setup as some members of the community have on theirs and I don’t want to sound disingenuous but I can say that my USB3 monitors, my MFDs and my shambles of an Akers-Barnes pit have all been put aside and the Rift is now the go-to.
Lots of projects have added VR support in and clearly think that their player base would use it. ED, DCS, Project Cars, War Thunder, ETS - to name a few big names in the simming world. I’m sure each sim has other stories on their lists to get through but someone, somewhere at each company thought the investment was worthwhile.
We’re a lot further on now than we were then of course. I don’t doubt that todays VR would be ideal for a non complex flight sim. The issue isn’t whether VR works, it’s whether it works for a complex sim. And when I say works with it, I mean whether it works without having to use workarounds.
I suppose it depends by what you mean by ‘works’.
If you mean that you can click buttons and flick switches with your fingers, then yeah, we’re not there yet with VR and there’ll be workarounds for that. Then again, if you don’t have a RL simpit, you currently have to click and flick with your mouse anyway, so I can’t really see how that fits in as a reason not to integrate VR.
I do wish that people who are invested in VR would dial some of their enthusiasm back. I don’t think it does anyone any favours to turn the discussion about it into a confrontation.
I think it’s because we’re genuinely excited! We’re clearly huge fans of FBMS and would love to experience it with VR. The enthusiasm is just a function of disappointment (for lack of a better word) because it seems like the VR idea might get shot down before it ever takes off.
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Yeah I have literally zero issues adjusting any of those things in a car unless it’s one of the first times I’m driving it.
Even with your eyes closed? Note that “not looking at it” doesn’t count because peripheral vision still works. If your ability to operate controls and press buttons with your eyes closed is the same as with your eyes opened, then I’m seriously impressed.
Again, OK, a few people have apps on iPads and such, some printed out charts, MFDs, etc. Most don’t. Most people have no issues memorizing check lists, just like IRL. I mostly play in the ITO, there you’ve got the option of having kneeboards in the virtual cockpit displaying info for different airfields.
Some people can operate their car’s dash controls and buttons with their eyes closed without losing any accuracy or efficiency. Most don’t.
As far as VR is concerned, you’ve just narrowed it down to people who don’t use iPads or any other external/physical devices, have no need for check lists or have memorized them, and who play in ITO. Very good!
Can any RL tubeliner pilots here confirm that they have memorized their pre-takeoff checklist and don’t bother with a printed one? Can any pilot here confirm that in an emergency, all they do is recall the appropriate checklist and not bother with a printed one?
ps. any chance of a screenshot of the ITO kneeboard “in use”? ie, as big as possible?
Wait, you think RL fighter pilots bring a bunch of manuals that they open to read checklists mid flight for everything from takeoff to FENCE in to dropping bombs?
Ah yes… how much information do you really think a human mind can contain? And in an emergency, how much do you want to rely on a person’s ability to recall information vs. reading out a checklist and double-checking that everything has been done? You’re on a flight to your holiday in sunny Spain but the Airbus you’re in just started losing power in the right engine. Do you want your pilot to just recall the emergency procedure or do you want him to “do” the emergency procedure as the co-pilot reads off from a checklist?
Just because you personally can mess with your settings while flying low level, does not mean you should. This is something detailed quite well in a number of AFIs.
True, but I think the point is – if I need to mess with your settings while flying at low level, I can, and without significantly increasing the risk of ground collision.
The hilarious thing is in your example, using a TIR or POV hat instead of VR, you still cant use the mouse to click the ICP while looking back to check six XD
The thing is, with a touchscreen or a physical button, I can reach out to touch it and activate it at the same time I check six, meaning my hand is reaching out for the button at the same time my head is swiveling around to check six. With only a screen and mouse cursor, you are restricted to doing things one-at-a-time. Click the ICP first (as you need to keep your view steady), then check six (or vice versa). Try to rush one step and you either click nothing or worse, click something else!
I have MFDs, apps etc and a Rift so I suppose I can’t adequately answer your question. I haven’t spent anywhere near the amount of money or time on my setup as some members of the community have on theirs and I don’t want to sound disingenuous but I can say that my USB3 monitors, my MFDs and my shambles of an Akers-Barnes pit have all been put aside and the Rift is now the go-to.
Sweet! How much time have you put in the Rift with BMS? Kick up a campaign or two, put it through the wringer, and I look forward to hearing your thoughts in a few months!
Lots of projects have added VR support in and clearly think that their player base would use it. ED, DCS, Project Cars, War Thunder, ETS - to name a few big names in the simming world. I’m sure each sim has other stories on their lists to get through but someone, somewhere at each company thought the investment was worthwhile.
The difference here is that those devs see VR integration as “worthwhile” in the sense that it’ll get them more customers = more money = they keep their jobs. BMS devs are different… whether 100 people fly BMS or 1,000 people, BMS devs do what they do out of their passion for Falcon. Tommo might get more money, sure, but the devs won’t. Because of this, the priority system for BMS devs would be different from a commercial dev group, I would think.
Also, compared to a full-time dev company, I don’t think the BMS devs are on the same level. Again, this would mean that the prioritization system would be different from that of a full-time dev company.
Note that I’m not saying VR integration in BMS should be a no-go; I’m simply saying that there may be other things that are in the pipeline for 3-4 Falcon weeks, others might be in 5-6 Falcon weeks, and yet others may be in 6 Falcon months. Where VR integration is in that system only BMS devs can say for sure but I would not expect 3-4 Falcon weeks.
Now let’s indulge a bit into fantasy at this point… waves magic wand… BMS devs announce that 4.33.2 will be released on May 10, 2016, and will have full VR integration (problems with HUD sorted) and even allow people to operate switches/knobs by just reaching out and doing it. They’ve dropped everything else from their plate to do this. May 10 rolls around. Out of the total BMS simmer population, how many do you think will be able to benefit from VR integration?
I suppose it depends by what you mean by ‘works’.
If you mean that you can click buttons and flick switches with your fingers, then yeah, we’re not there yet with VR and there’ll be workarounds for that. Then again, if you don’t have a RL simpit, you currently have to click and flick with your mouse anyway, so I can’t really see how that fits in as a reason not to integrate VR.
Not just the mouse. Some people have a functional simpit which has game aids to replace/complement the mouse and keyboard. This is where BMS becomes incompatible with VR for those with such setups…. as you well know. The decision there would then be whether the use of VR for better immersion warrants the loss of the ability to use those game aids.
I think it’s because we’re genuinely excited! We’re clearly huge fans of FBMS and would love to experience it with VR. The enthusiasm is just a function of disappointment (for lack of a better word) because it seems like the VR idea might get shot down before it ever takes off.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m excited about VR as well! However, I’m looking more for the “mixed reality” setup I’ve linked in post #106. While I don’t deny that the experience of flying with VR would be awesome, I cannot sacrifice the ability to do cockpit work for this. If this were FSX or Elite Dangerous, sure. Not with BMS though.