Cbu 103/105 ,not WCMD in 4.33?
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Good Day, All.
As some might have noticed I have long been asking for cbu-103. So, along comes 4.33 ,AND WE GET CBU-105 TO BOOT, and I’m happy as a clam. However, I was reading in the manuals that they are not really WCMD in BMS as the winds aloft settings are not being implemented, or something to that effect.
So, my question is how precise is their CEP being modeled in 4.33? More to the point, what is the best way to implement them in 4.33? -
WCMDs work like JDAMs does in BMS 4.33, there is no real wind physics or anything like that. It’s a compromise, but it’s good enough as in RL these weapons belong to the IAM family (same as JDAM).
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WCMD is a crap name sold to the US Congress because they don’t know what an inertially-guided cluster munition dispenser is. The use of the word “wind” is a red herring. They knew it made no sense but it was for the benefit of the acquisition department. It’s a effectively JDAM cluster bomb without the GPS because 5m vs. 30m CEP doesn’t matter when it’s a cluster bomb. A Paveway II is “wind corrected” too; anything that steers for the target is “wind corrected.” The wind aspect of the WCMD name is not to be taken too seriously. You can enable winds aloft in BMS, just the AI won’t do well with it on. Mk-82 dumb bombs have wind drift for sure.
Wiki says WCMD CEP 28m which is on par of INS-only free fall ordnance like JDAM without GPS (either short duration or jamming environment). That’s like… 100’? I’m sure BMS is at least that accurate, probably better than that. Programming plausible levels of error is hard to do. It should be easy to test with Tacview and a HOF of 0’ or super long AD. Smack the canister straight into the target. Measure some distances.
Delivery with 103 I suggest pairs option with the footprint set to match target area. Anything worth shooting once is worth shooting twice. If the target quantity is high and are spread out, singles on individual targets but columns or dense treat them as one cluster formation. 105s with their expensive and potent SFW payload suggest a slightly more frugal use. In both cases I assume the pairs as the default decision and singles requiring a convincing argument otherwise.
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Hey Frederf thanx for info
Programming plausible levels of error is hard to do.
If you actually meant that it’s hard to code such errors in BMS then actually it’s not so much, see for example what will happen if you release JDAMs without aligning them, there will be some error built into the target position (amount of error will depend on the amount of alignment already done, there are 2 “levels” of error, it’s not linear to the alignment stage or anything). I guess I can easily enough built in a 30m natural error for WCMDs, maybe I’ll actually do that in sometime (although the effect will be hardly noticeable anyway :)).
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You can enable winds aloft in BMS, just the AI won’t do well with it on. Mk-82 dumb bombs have wind drift for sure.
I do not understand this part. So now we have wind drift or not without messing in cfg?
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Hey Frederf thanx for info
If you actually meant that it’s hard to code such errors in BMS then actually it’s not so much, see for example what will happen if you release JDAMs without aligning them, there will be some error built into the target position (amount of error will depend on the amount of alignment already done, there are 2 “levels” of error, it’s not linear to the alignment stage or anything). I guess I can easily enough built in a 30m natural error for WCMDs, maybe I’ll actually do that in sometime (although the effect will be hardly noticeable anyway :)).
Yeah do it, add the error. It doesn’t matter if no one notices - the fact we know it’s there provides the immersion…
Speaking of CEPs / errors etc, it would be awesome if you could program some error into weapon delivery calculations. The interaction between inertial position / true position, system altitude and the various degress of accuracy between the different ranging sensors is crying out to be modeled. Now that we have realistic SPI and correct HUD indications of ranging method (B,F,T,L etc prefixes), it would be great if the ranging method had an effect of the accuracy of the solution. For example as you know, laser ranging and AGR should do a better job than pure BARO ranging. Oh and add RAD ALT ranging option as well…
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105s with their expensive and potent SFW payload suggest a slightly more frugal use. In both cases I assume the pairs as the default decision and singles requiring a convincing argument otherwise.
My AI wingie threw four of 'em on a single KS-19 during a DEAD raid. I’d have loved to hear her convincing argument.
Other than that, great weapon though. Threw mine in singles from high alt via CCRP and racked up an impressive amount of kills.
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About the winds aloft part, are there any plans of trying to bring that back to the sim? I remember it was tried in some SP version with not very good results on the AI as Frederf was saying.
Not that it would have significant impact for the usual F-16 sim-flying (that is what the sim is about! so probably is not worth the trouble), but it just feels a little bit odd to read 5kt at 36kft on the DED when you are more used to seeing like 100
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Thanks for the input, Guys. Frederf, what you wrote about WCMD was new and very interesting to me. My understanding of WCMD from what I had read is that they “correct for wind”.
This question arose out of a mission I flew last night. I flew a DEAD mission where I found myself surrounded by 2 SA-2’s and a SA-3, which I hit, and a SA-6 that was rather sneaky in that it didn’t show itself until I was real close to it. (and Devs, good job on the AI on that!). Anyway, the -6 got me as I was dropping on it. It was ,to paraphrase Topgun, “the best flying yet, right up until you got killed!” I was using JSOW on that mission. I want to get away from that ordinance as I know our multiplayer community doesn’t use that. So, I like the IAM/non JSOW cluster bomb concept, hence the question. -
If you actually meant that it’s hard to code such errors in BMS then actually it’s not so much
I shouldn’t say “hard to do” but more “it’s another step in complexity to modeling.”
Funny enough JDAMs get more accurate the longer the drop since they can do multiple GPS updates. WCMD should drift more (theoretically) with longer drops since they are INS only.
I do not understand this part. So now we have wind drift or not without messing in cfg?
As far as I know it is the same winds aloft as 4.32 with the same issues.
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Funny enough JDAMs get more accurate the longer the drop since they can do multiple GPS updates.
Do you have a source for that? I would think that as long as it falls long enough to acquire GPS it will have GPS accuracy. I don’t see how extra time will improve that.
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Thanks for the input, Guys. Frederf, what you wrote about WCMD was new and very interesting to me. My understanding of WCMD from what I had read is that they “correct for wind”.
This question arose out of a mission I flew last night. I flew a DEAD mission where I found myself surrounded by 2 SA-2’s and a SA-3, which I hit, and a SA-6 that was rather sneaky in that it didn’t show itself until I was real close to it. (and Devs, good job on the AI on that!). Anyway, the -6 got me as I was dropping on it. It was ,to paraphrase Topgun, “the best flying yet, right up until you got killed!” I was using JSOW on that mission. I want to get away from that ordinance as I know our multiplayer community doesn’t use that. So, I like the IAM/non JSOW cluster bomb concept, hence the question.Coming back from a long hiatus, I’m wondering why “our multiplayer community doesn’t use…” JSOWs??? Why not?
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Coming back from a long hiatus, I’m wondering why “our multiplayer community doesn’t use…” JSOWs??? Why not?
SoBad, this question has been asked before. As with HARM, it is felt they remove some challenge from the game
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Coming back from a long hiatus, I’m wondering why “our multiplayer community doesn’t use…” JSOWs??? Why not?
They are like mini nukes, over powered, just check falcononline forums and you see why.
AI and terrain model is simple so you can get huge amounts of kills with those in one flight
-EDIT- This may not be so bad now in 4.33 than it was in 4.32 , i have to make more testing.
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Speaking of CEPs / errors etc, it would be awesome if you could program some error into weapon delivery calculations. The interaction between inertial position / true position, system altitude and the various degress of accuracy between the different ranging sensors is crying out to be modeled. Now that we have realistic SPI and correct HUD indications of ranging method (B,F,T,L etc prefixes), it would be great if the ranging method had an effect of the accuracy of the solution. For example as you know, laser ranging and AGR should do a better job than pure BARO ranging. Oh and add RAD ALT ranging option as well…
I for one would love to see this - folks needing accurate system altitude to be able to get decent bombing solutions in CCRP, implementation of A-CAL, possible long/short bomb errors due to incorrect system altitude, solution lag for CCIP over broken terrain… Id like to see steerpoint elevation no longer be the intended altitude of flyover. How awesome would it be to get the CCIP pipper displayed in a plane parallel to the ground, but above or below it due to incorrect system altitude?
Im not sure you can get a radar altimeter ranging solution. something to look into I guess.
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The payload of the “A” model JSOW is 145 BLU-97 while the CBU-87/103 is 202 BLU-97. Delivery of these submunition particulars notwithstanding, one would expect nearly equal or inferior terminal effects from the JSOW-A. Historically 4.32 JSOW-A effect was hugely more powerful than the CBU-87, rather unbelievably so. Since the JSOW-C is not available in most campaigns, the JSOW-A became the JSOW-is-an-unrealistically-overpowered-weapon categorically.
For example a 2000’ EGEA JSOW-A fired at a cluster of armored targets killed two tanks 462m apart as well as 3 others. Assuming a circular uniform distribution that is 145 munitions spread over ~167,000m^2 or ~1 munition per 1000m^2. A T-72 is about a 25m^2 target. Respective areas suggest a hit-to-kill-required hit ratio of 2.5%. Trucks, infantry, kills and tank damages are of course possible without a direct hit. The expected radius to have 50% hit-to-kill ratio for 145/202 BLUs is 48m/57m using much simplified math (basically what radius produces 1 munition/50m^2 density).
In 4.33 wide area total devastation of hard targets with JSOW-A is nearly or actually impossible. Combined with the much more accurate modeling of the system in general the stigma of using the “instant promotion bomb” should weaken.
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4.32 JSOW-A effect was hugely more powerful than the CBU-87, rather unbelievably so. Since the JSOW-C is not available in most campaigns, the JSOW-A became the JSOW-is-an-unrealistically-overpowered-weapon categorically.
In 4.33 wide area total devastation of hard targets with JSOW-A is nearly or actually impossible. Combined with the much more accurate modeling of the system in general the stigma of using the “instant promotion bomb” should weaken.
This has become a very interesting discussion now.
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While I agree that 4.32 JSOW were WAY overmodeled in damage effects, my understanding is that the 4.33 version of JSOWs is more realistic. Any BMS devs care to weigh in on this?
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Assuming that JSOWs are now more realistic in 4.33, the argument that a weapon doesn’t give enough challenge is very naive. When I go into a fight, I do not care about ‘fairness’, ‘challenge’, or ‘balance’. Real life isn’t a rule-regulated sport. I want to utterly, immediately, and devastatingly overwhelm my opponent. If someone approaches me with a baseball bat, my response is to run them over with a Ford 150 pickup truck. F**k ‘challenge’. This philosophy goes far to explain my long ‘real life’ years thus far.
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I took out a whole Hart artillery site with guns, whole thing went up in flames to my surprise!, I’ll try get picture next time. I’m enjoying campaign without HAD and JSOW, I like getting up close to the fight.
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I fired 4 JSOW As at a T-55 BN stationary in 3x2 clusters (about 1000’ across each group), DMPI was a center of individual clusters. EGEA was 500’, 1166’, 1833’, 2500’ (EGEA seems to change nothing, the weapons just plow into the DMPI like they are C models and the area effect happens the same or extremely similar). Each weapon destroyed 2-3 vehicles and damaged 4-5 in this arrangement. That seems reasonable. Do the same thing with a softer BN and you’re going to really do some hurt. Armor targets demand JSOW-Bs which we don’t have; As are reasonably effective against armor especially in quantity but devastating against soft targets.
The challenge with JSOWs is terminal alignment and leading moving targets. The effect seems to be entirely circular so unless terrain, weapon formations, or shoot down is an issue, direct weapon path is just fine. For moving targets I clocked a convoy in GMTI to see how fast it passed my FCR cursors in X minutes. Combining the convoy speed, expected TOF, radar returns of road paths, and convoy direction there’s plenty of challenge in engaging moving units.
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The Paveway II series do not correct for wind; they have an inefficient flight profile that only guides to the laser spot. The realease point can be adjusted by on-board wind data, but after release the weapon is hands off in regards to winds. The difference between a WCMD and PWII is similar to the difference between pure persuit and pro-nav.