DCS Mirage 2000 politically sensitive question
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Maybe I didn’t understood correctly your post (?), but … A Thrust/Weight ratio > 1 doesn’t mean necessarily that you can accelerate on a 90° climb.
Just noted my error.
You Are right of course -
It s funny that you feel offended by my impressions on your module, it’s a perfect example of the completely wrong mentality that you have. I should feel offended, because it’s MY 50 dollars that are now in YOUR pocket, not the other way around… My reply was to a topic written in a forum where people fly with high quality simulators, not fancy graphics toys with fantasy flight models, and sadly you can’t deny that this is actually the truth. Here on BMS quality standards are high, and they don’t even charge you money for it. Draw your own conclusion and keep blaming “my attitude” and taking it personally, this is certainly not gonna improve that hobbyist model that the 2000c is.
The only thing that speaks the truth is the fact that you maybe only flew it upon release and then never again.
There is nothing fantasy about the flight model nowadays. Does it still need a bit tweaking? Maybe.
Quality standards over in DCS are just as high, maybe even more can be achieved, since their possibilities, money- and staff wise, are higher, but I wouldn’t know and wouldn’t want to downplay BMS achievements.
DCS 2.0 is just in it’s infancy. Sure, BMS has been around for a while and they do nothing but the most from what they have, but to dismiss the quality of DCS, simply because you’re more of a BMS fanboy is foolish. To ignore the fact that the m2K was released in alpha further shows the errors in your thinking. -
What is it with these never ending BMS vs. DCS arguments?
The flight sim community is small as it is. Can’t we just acknowledge the merits of both?
I most certainly do. -
The creator of the DCS M2000 module had asked me the authorization to use 2 things I’ve created:
- The performance charts
- The CL, CD and Thrust curves contained in the BMS 4.32 OFM file.
My answer has been positive, so, they have included my Performance Charts in their manual and they are trying to inject my CL, CD and Thrust in their DCS AFM….
As far as I know, what is currently public is a beta version (in fact they release a first beta and then an update).
The first beta did not have a FM based on my tables and global performance were very approximative.
It seems they have rebuilt the FM of the update in taking into account my CL, CD and Thrust tables, but it also seems that the way DCS model FM is a bit different from the way BMS describe an OFM, so the mapping is not obvious and the result does not seems to be wonderful at the moment…
BTW, they have tried to build a DCS AFM, so they need to define - all kind of parameters that are not in BMS OFM… and for that they are at te very beginning of the stoty (the yaw control is currently totally wrong)
- the AFM “code” to mimic the FLCS (and for that, I assume they have absolutely no knowledge of the M2000 FLCS), do I do not even understand what they want to do.
In summary:
- Yes DCS M2000 FM is based on BMS 4.32 M2000 OFM
- The current beta version of the DCS module has a FAR less accurate FM than current BMS M2000 AFM
BTW: if you compare the Mig-21bis DCS module FM with RL data, you will find that it is far less accurate than the BMS 4.33 Mig-21bis simple OFM
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Nice insight!
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… but guys … remember … you are talking about a beta product. :roll:
(Do you understand now why BMS do never communicate on WIP features, do not release any video of on going project and to not makes their beta public! … :mrgreen: )
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BTW: if you compare the Mig-21bis DCS module FM with RL data, you will find that it is far less accurate than the BMS 4.33 Mig-21bis simple OFM
Really???
OMG!!!; What a bad luck has had Novac Djordjijevic throughout his career
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BTW: if you compare the Mig-21bis DCS module FM with RL data, you will find that it is far less accurate than the BMS 4.33 Mig-21bis simple OFM
Really? I was going to buy that module and so far I had heard nothing but good about it. I think the evan had a serbian pilot working with them, can it be that bad?
And about the M2000 in BMS, does it has it´s own FLCS or using the F16 one?
Cheers
Tulkas
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Really? I was going to buy that module and so far I had heard nothing but good about it. I think the evan had a serbian pilot working with them, can it be that bad?
And about the M2000 in BMS, does it has it´s own FLCS or using the F16 one?
Cheers
Tulkas
remember that Microprose worked with F16 pilot to create falcon 4.0 …
sounds familiar about the quality of the FM ?
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http://www.stripes.com/news/aviano-airmen-s-visit-to-serbia-part-of-friendship-exchange-1.50949
Novac and his MiGuelito
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And about the M2000 in BMS, does it has it´s own FLCS or using the F16 one?
Still using F-16 FLCS logic.
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Yes, the flight model is made by a real MiG-21 pilot, Novak Djordjijevic. http://www.leatherneck-sim.com/team/
(I do not want to talk about M-21’s FM relevance over BMS one, this is not interesting me, but I would like to comment your statement … ) … It will sounds strange to your ears, but pilot’s comments on a FM are not necessarily the most objective one over technical data (but depending on specific cases, reversal is also true ) … My point is that ony pilots feedback do not makes a FM accurate … you necessarily need technical data.
I know what I am talking about because, on my a/c, we we already demonstrated with the real machine (something that was perfectly reproduced by the simulator and that we (the crew and pilots) claimed to be inaccurate) that pilot’s feeling and feedbacks could be biased be external parameters and in some case, are not objectives.
Pilots feedback are usually more relevant on avionics and systems stuff (sometimes even over RL documentation which are not always accurate not up-to-date)
As MavJP say,
participated to Falcon4 development … but you know how FM were inaccurate despite what was said (especially concerning a commercial product! )(Pete Bonanni) Most people don’t realize that Falcon 3.0 started as a low cost F-16 simulator for the Air National Guard. I worked with Gilman Louie, the current Chairman of MicroProse and the creator of the Falcon series, on a proposal to build an F-16 trainer. Spectrum-Holobyte was teamed with General Dynamics and another company called Perceptronics on the project and fortunately we lost the contract.
Tribute and cheers to “moustache man”!
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I was simply answering Tulkas question with the fact that the flight model was made by a real pilot. No need to read between the lines because there’s nothing hidden in there. Not a single word was uttered about the accuracy of the flight model.
This is how I understood your post, do not worry.
I was just using it to illustrate that even RL pilots can be (in some case of subjects) biased by their feelings and interpretations which can be unexpected on our (simmers) side. Having a RL pilot (qualified on the machine) is greatly valuable of course, but does make everything. On BMS side we have several F-16 pilots (among other) , but without Mav-Jp’s code and data … BMS’s FM wouldn’t be the one we know.
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BTW: if you compare the Mig-21bis DCS module FM with RL data, you will find that it is far less accurate than the BMS 4.33 Mig-21bis simple OFM
Really???
OMG!!!; What a bad luck has had Novac Djordjijevic throughout his careerLet’s take a particular feature: supersonic accelration @30,000ft with 1x490l CL tank, 4xAAM and 2,000kg of fuel at the start of the run. (Full A/B, special A/B regime is not available @FL300)
t=0.00" 400Kts IAS /M1.10
t=1’47’’ 651Kts IAS /M1.76
t=1’55’’ 659Kts IAS /M1.783IRL (from L-17 performance manual, L-17 being the name of the Mig-21bis iz75A in Croatian/Yougoslavian AF)
- t=1’47’’ 595Kts IAS / M1.62 (-56Kts / -0.14 Mach less)
- t=3’00’’ 622Kts IAS / M1.69 (and this is the absolute top speed in this configuration at this altitude in ISA condition)
You can call that an accurate FM if you want…
BTW the DCS module provide a great flight experience a very accurate pit and procedure wise, it’s a wonderful model.And yes, Flacon 4.0 1.05fr F-16 FM was even worse :mrgreen:
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Just some thoughts I wanted to jot down after reading this thread all my opinion of course.
IMHO
The comparison of BMS (non F16 based) Flight models to their real aircraft counterpart should be taken with a grain of salt.
As I understand it the programmers are able to base the other flight models after available RW data but the Flight Control System is still based off of the F16 due to the simulation so the actual performance will be off a bit from the real thing.
Ok this is no problem, this is an F16 simulation that boasts it’s flight modeling based on real world data and real world F16 Pilot consultation during the original development of Falcon and continual development of BMS.I am not in the know other than what the developers post here but i’m quite sure that the level of fidelity put into the F16 is not matched in the other flight models so again comparing BMSs additional flight models to the real thing or other simulations that base their flight models off of the real thing might not be the best comparison. Enjoy the additional flight models, be happy we have them and expect them to improve as further updates*…come out.
Now for DCS
DCS is not a non profit organization so they are going to operate based on the bottom line. They need cash flow and they will do what it takes to get that cash flow. Right now it appears that based on their new DCS world update and Nevada they have gotten the message concerning their current scenery/performance and the ability to expand down the road. This seems like a huge move forward and opens the doors for other things.
This continual Beta release BS is simply getting the model out there to generate cash flow and an immediate return on investment which may be of some concern but I think it’s simply so they can then take that cash flow and use it to operate until the next Beta version comes out and repeat.
I’m guessing they have a small group that works behind the scenes getting these beta versions up to speed for the final release but not as important as generating the next new Beta model for sale. Remember once you have purchased the beta model the final version is yours for free so why use up manpower and resources for something that’s not going to net you any additional cash flow. They use the Beta release as a way to toss a model out there that may have some issues and then when you complain …hey it’s a beta release…you knew this when you purchased it…the final version will be out soon …
As far as the fidelity of the flight model I can’t comment as I don’t know which is to say that most don’t know either. If you aren’t a developer and know FOR A FACT what information they are using and how they are programming it…your comments are just opinions as are mine.
My biggest concern about DCS and the other flight models is how they all will play together in a campaign or Tactical Engagement Scenario.
There are many 3rd party developers making different aircraft for DCS and just how accurate are their flight models? So if we get into a PVP scenario and Joe Pilot is using the SU27 which defies the laws of physics, how does this play in a real world scenario? Same thing with the arcade like Radars and other things with some of the aircraft that is available?All models are not created equally nor does there seem to be a benchmark by Eagle Dynamics for doing so other than how much time, money and effort do the developers want to put into realism and real world flight characteristics…
This could be wrong I don’t know but it doesn’t seem that there is… even from the developers of DCS. Take a look at the F15 for example. A very big update performance wise from the original and we still have arcade avionics.I like the fact that DCS has all of these different flight models but I think down the road with the lack of fidelity put into some of these aircraft you are more than likely going to run into an issue of one model being far superior to another in performance and this isn’t necessarily the case in the real world. This could be argued in BMS as well but again BMS is an F16 simulation, not a simulation for anything and everything.
I am not pro one or the other in this post, just some thoughts that maybe some in the know can comment or correct.
Thanks
Bill
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The only thing that speaks the truth is the fact that you maybe only flew it upon release and then never again.
There is nothing fantasy about the flight model nowadays. Does it still need a bit tweaking? Maybe.
Quality standards over in DCS are just as high, maybe even more can be achieved, since their possibilities, money- and staff wise, are higher, but I wouldn’t know and wouldn’t want to downplay BMS achievements.
DCS 2.0 is just in it’s infancy. Sure, BMS has been around for a while and they do nothing but the most from what they have, but to dismiss the quality of DCS, simply because you’re more of a BMS fanboy is foolish. To ignore the fact that the m2K was released in alpha further shows the errors in your thinking.I’m sorry but this just proves furthermore that you are the perfect target for a module like the mirage, little more than average casual simmer. Nothing wrong with it at all, just can’t take your answer in serious consideration.
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I’m sorry but this just proves furthermore that you are the perfect target for a module like the mirage, little more than average casual simmer. Nothing wrong with it at all, just can’t take your answer in serious consideration.
Not once have you acknowledged the fact that the mirage was released in Alpha and since then a lot has changed, including the FM. Shuttle launches are a thing of the past. I’m not saying the FM is perfect. It is after all, repeatidly mentioned here, still in BETA. Mirrors aren’t even fully implemented, contrary to what you said. Avionics are being augmented, too.
Your initial criticism and downright hostility towards that module is simply based on outdated facts, let alone strongly biased.
And just because you find strong criticism in the DCS Mirage, masquerading as knowledge, doesn’t make you a hardcore simmer.
It makes you person that put down 50$ and hoped for more.