Oculus Rift
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Bump!
Getting excited as it comes closer.
I am curious to see whether it will be possible to use the Oculus (including stereo 3D and 6-DOF Headtracking) with Falcon BMS (one day) and how serious the problem of the display resolution is.
Greets!
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Got mine ordered! Hopefully we can work something out!
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Would be certainly a great way to admire the great virtual cockpits that came with BMS
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Looking forward to hearing your reports guys! (have to let you guys be the guinea pigs before I can justify spending the money on the Rift + required computer upgrade lol sorry )
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DCS with DK2 is pretty impressive, you get a real sense of speed and altitude. You have to move your head close to the MFD to read it. The HUD is perfectly readable though visually tracking aircraft would be tough without the labels. Starting in a hanger sitting in the F-15 cold with the canopy raised, taxing then blasting down the runway is one hell of an experience. Exciting times ahead!
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Go for a large 4k curved screen instead.
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That would be good for strike mission simulation I guess… even self escort strike so long as the TRs ensured BVR engagement.
Not so great for training defensive BFM, though.
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That would be good for strike mission simulation I guess… even self escort strike so long as the TRs ensured BVR engagement.
Not so great for training defensive BFM, though.
The only problem with it for BFM is uplook…which is something I’m planning to address by using EDTraker in a single axis (Z) only mode and building a taller screen.
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@FNG:
Go for a large 4k curved screen instead.
FWIW, 4k spread over something that size isn’t going to come close to even 20/20 visual acuity. At 4k and the normal monitor distance, 20/20 is a screen size of about 37" or less. Kinda blew my mind that even with modern advanced graphics and high resolutions that we are still looking out our tiny window into a sim’s world without “fighter pilot eyes”.
The only problem with it for BFM is uplook…which is something I’m planning to address by using EDTraker in a single axis (Z) only mode and building a taller screen.
Hehe you had a similar previous comment that made me waste this week trying to get this to happen with a larger up look monitor and SoftTH:
I was thinking that with the narrow VFOV of a 3x1 20" monitor setup, a little extra view in the direction of the lift vector couldn’t hurt. In the end though I couldn’t get SoftTH to cooperate with that specific setup.I’m not like you and some others, TIR for me is fine, especially as I combine it now with more/bigger screens. While I am a civilian flight instructor, I don’t feel like I have to worry about the bad muscle memory that it builds since I’m not flying fighters, or even something with a bubble canopy. Again why are you not concerned about a 4-7 o’clock view? That previously linked Semper Viper article by Joe Bill Dryden made it pretty clear with proper technique you get a lot of aft visibility in the F-16.
All that being said, playing around with a nicer Goggle cardboard setup with head straps has made me appreciate 1:1 head movements in phone apps and see how that could be a game changer in sims. Unfortunately, while I have used them with BMS via TrinusVR app, the head tracking didn’t work for me.
I still think those of us with home cockpit setups would be able to do some kind of setup with VR mounts and taking a page from how NVGs are used in real life. The more I have played with the phone VR stuff the more I am convinced of this, it doesn’t take big of a gap to have a usable look under. Pilots do this every night, working inside to cockpit by looking under the NVGs. Too bad the VR companies are concerned with light tight designs and then designing complicated camera solutions instead of a simple physical fix. I know that they are also going that extra contact on the under side of the headset to add stability though. NVGs are stable without that point of contact due to the helmet and potentially counterweights. LOL, when I was considering DIYing a HMD to play with, I for the first time seriously considered finally buying a helmet to build a display with look under, which despite all my craziness in flight sims over the years, wearing a helmet is a personal extreme that I draw a line at.
Playing with the Cardboard apps have made me more convinced that VR will be the main way people will start going when the technology becomes more mature, which could be even the next generation after OR and the Vive. I would be on the bleeding edge of this if it wasn’t for Falcon’s bad 3d support and the idea of potentially taking a Dremel to the VR Headset to satisfy my look under theory that may not 100% work out.
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…heh…my problem is that I have other trainers to worry about…and muscle memory is a @#$$%^ to overcome. So no TIR for me, ever. But I like the look of your solution!
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Yeah, but not my pic, can’t get that to work on my system (probably something I’m doing wrong with SoftTH). This weekend I traded for a 27" monitor and now trying for a nice PLP format LOL.
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@FNG:
Go for a large 4k curved screen instead.
Lol, funny. While on the one hand people complain about the price for the rift and a computer upgrade, there are on the other hand suggestions like this. You could as well recommend the placement of a full physical cockpit in the center of a dome with 360 degree projection so one also can look up during BFM. And while you are at it, why not make it move with some hydraulics?
You know, on the one hand there are pit builders… using physical cockpit replicas, always looking for surround screen projection solutions, so ideally they wouldn’t even need head tracking anymore. They just don’t want to pan the rendered video around their physical pit, they want it to stay aligned. And of course they dont need and dont want to see an in-game cockpit.
Then there is the majority of folks, that use the simulation with generic hardware. For those its great to have an in-game cockpit. Well, of course they have to click the switches using the mouse, but using head tracking they can pan 360 degree around, as such simulating a real cockpit.
For the latter, an HMD could be a nice gadget in comparision to a conventional monitor+track ir. While still generic hardware, suitable not only for Falcon, one might find himself virtually sitting in the cockpit and being able to look around. In full 3D and 1:1 scale!
…without having to sacrifice a whole room as in-house simulation center, without having to build a physical cockpit, getting it connected with the sim, display extraction and stuff, then finding a solution for stereoscopic panorama projection and then trying to sync the alignment of the rendered video with the physical cockpit, maybe even align a physical HUD with the game. All this while trying to achive a maximum FOV because headtracking is not suitable in such a setup and is tried to be avoided… Erhm… and the computer upgrade would be needed just as well. And then some.
So, comparing ups and downs, weighting required effort and money, for me the choice seems to be not so clear and straight forward towards your illustrated setup
greets!
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I still think those of us with home cockpit setups would be able to do some kind of setup with VR mounts and taking a page from how NVGs are used in real life.
I have the utmost respect for the cockpit guys. I have seen and had the pleasure to try truly impressive setups including motor driven instruments and stuff!
That’s why I think the true cockpit builder can have no interest in such a solution with VR glasses. After all he could not see his pit. After all that work that went into it, he would exchance his beloved phyiscal cockpit replica with the virtual ingame cockpit. That makes no sense.
If a cockpit guy was trying to simulate NVGs, he would switch out the light and use real NVGs, then again searching for a way to make the rendered video look right when seen through the NVGsI think those guys are probably looking for other solutions for their projection problem, such as dome projection, curved screens and alike.
And that’s perfectly understandable since a physical cockpit setup is an entire different approach to achieve immersion when compared to the use of VR glasses. Each with it’s specific advantages and disadvantages of course.
But this thread should be dedicated the possibilites of the rift (and similar devices) in Falcon BMS. So back on topic… …no real news available yet, I know…
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I have the utmost respect for the cockpit guys. I have seen and had the pleasure to try truly impressive setups including motor driven instruments and stuff!
That’s why I think the true cockpit builder can have no interest in such a solution with VR glasses. After all he could not see his pit. After all that work that went into it, he would exchance his beloved phyiscal cockpit replica with the virtual ingame cockpit. That makes no sense.
If a cockpit guy was trying to simulate NVGs, he would switch out the light and use real NVGs, then again searching for a way to make the rendered video look right when seen through the NVGsI think those guys are probably looking for other solutions for their projection problem, such as dome projection, curved screens and alike.
And that’s perfectly understandable since a physical cockpit setup is an entire different approach to achieve immersion when compared to the use of VR glasses. Each with it’s specific advantages and disadvantages of course.
But this thread should be dedicated the possibilites of the rift (and similar devices) in Falcon BMS. So back on topic… …no real news available yet, I know…
Note I am not a hardcore 1:1 cockpit builder, but I am interested in OR etc. because of A. Wide, stereoscopic view, B. 1:1 headtracking.
For me, and even I think most cockpit builders looking for B., VR is really going to be the only true solution for many years. You can talk domed 360 displays but to have the hardware to run it and for it to be at a not horrible PPI and costs, it is much further off than a good VR solution is now.You misunderstand my NVG analogy, I’m not talking about using it to simulate NVGs, I’m talking about using a similar technique of how they are used. IRL, you look under them for stuff inside the cockpit. Apparently earlier ORs had a gap that you could somewhat use that technique. It sounds like the release version will not have this gap. The Vive is taking it further by mounting a camera but then they are only having a “holodeck” effect when getting towards the edges of your play area. Another reason to have the gap is that with to get the headtracking does not equal eyetracking. Sometimes it is better to move glance down at the cockpit instruments/switch states then move your head to view them (I know eyetrack has been discussed some but IIRC it isn’t in any of the 1st Gen VR public releases). I currently do this all the time with my 2 instrument monitors and TrackIR, I need to check an MFD, overall fuel state, etc. quickly I move my eyes, if I’m going to do some more serious work like TGP I move my head down. With the proper gap, you can have your pretty cockpit still by looking under the VR headset. You may need to have a more rigid mount to the VR headset since your are losing a point of contact and play at a lower light level to not wash out the display due to the light opening, but I think it will be a usable solution.
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Hehe, bump for Stevie, going through my old files and found all the Semper Viper articles, found the specific quote on F-16 check 6ing:
"One often-heard item concerning this new seat-back angle is that some people feel they can’t look toward six o’clock as easily as with their previous airplanes. Once again, pay some attention to the fact that this is a different airplane. With a conventional cockpit, you’re sitting erect or leaning slightly forward in the seat. The human makeup is such that the head rotates fairly well about the vertical axis. Therefore, it’s fairly easy to rotate the head and eyes far enough left or right to see over your shoulder. You get comfortable with such a motion because you’re familiar with it. These very same people who are complaining seem to forget that they’re usually doing nothing but looking at aircraft structure once they get cranked around. Looking at six o’clock in the F-16 requires a little different technique. Instead of simply turning your head, try this (don’t even think about leaning forward): use the “towel racks” to push or puff yourself left or right as far as you can go. (Both directions will work, and, with a little practice, you’ll quickly learn which direction is better at that particular moment.) Now, lean your head toward your shoulder in the same direction you’re leaning your body. With a little practice, you can get to where you can support your head with your shoulder while you’re pulling g. Now rotate your head about the now-leaning vertical axis and you’ll be able to look nearly right down the back of the airplane. And better yet, those clever devils have not put any aircraft structure in your way. The only possible interference now is from the top of the seat. Amazing.
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I think those guys are probably looking for other solutions for their projection problem, such as dome projection, curved screens and alike.
And that’s perfectly understandable since a physical cockpit setup is an entire different approach to achieve immersion when compared to the use of VR glasses. Each with it’s specific advantages and disadvantages of course.
Not necessarily. Im wanting a full cockpit. I dont think a full dome projection system is possible with BMS - I dont think BMS can project both 12 and 6 oclock positions at the same time. So something like the rift is of great interest to me.
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Hehe, bump for Stevie, going through my old files and found all the Semper Viper articles, found the specific quote on F-16 check 6ing:
…heh…now I better understand something I’ve read elsewhere about neck stress issues with Viper drivers…not to mention that if you have to keep your right hand on the stick, your left arm is going to inhibit your ability to do this in one direction…at least one direction.
I’m gonna stick to knowing the extent of just how far I can move my neck…sitting upright or not. And I know I have limitations in that arena - probably from pile-driving myself into a trampoline bed botching a Cody warming up during my high school gymnast days. Should have broken my neck…no idea why I didn’t.
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Not necessarily. Im wanting a full cockpit. I dont think a full dome projection system is possible with BMS - I dont think BMS can project both 12 and 6 oclock positions at the same time. So something like the rift is of great interest to me.
BMS has a really great way to build a fully domed sim, built right into it…and it would be even that much easier if you use an EDTracker - the trick is that you have to slave a moving projector platform to your head, and make the projector move with your sightline; BMS will follow, doing what it does with any head tracker. The Night Attack Harrier trainer I flew operated this way, and it was the single most immersive one I’ve ever flown. I’ve considered doing something like this - or partially like this, maybe a single roll/nod projector slaving in order to get the full up/down look I want in my visual system.
The problem is that building such a system takes a lot of space because of the projection distance required to throw a 120 degree visual spot on the dome - 30 odd feet or more - 120 to 140 or so degrees is about what it takes to fill the visual field to your periphery, also taking eye movement off centroid into account. Big, expensive, but the experience is killer…
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Yeah, JShepard’s cockpit does that. We have had that discussion before. I meant with something that wouldnt have any requirements for tracking rates - something like just projecting in all directions at once, onto a dome.
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…I got way too many bookmarks. I should spend more time outdoors.
These little girls figured out a way to do that…and at a somewhat reasonable cost. You still need the space for a dome, and for BMS to be able to provide a 360 degree FOV. Which might be possible using six projectors…but there goes “reasonable” OTW…
http://www.domebase.org/building-the-mini-dome/fisheye-projection-lens