Cadet Mentors
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It sounds like you are in the wrong position on the tanker, then.
Practice is always a great idea!
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I’m assuming the turbulence behind the tanker is modeled?..because I have a far easier time flying off the wing of another Viper (or a bogey…) than I do trying to hold form on a tanker at boom distance…so I wager there are secondary skills to be picked up in order to tank successfully. I just need WAY more practice.
You should avoid the hot air behind the engines of the tanker or you’ll mess up the engine irl, as well as the wing turbulence. You should be in this position when in formation with it
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In our wing we are trying to capture the competitive process of just getting to the Viper, that it’s a priveledge to learn what’s contained in our course, and that’s just making it here, we still have to get through the sorties and training. Our course is about 4 months long, 60 hours on instruction total, 19 sorties, and every one of them is an evaluation. Our instructors first and foremost teach each member everything there is to know about the Viper, but also evaluate and make sure they have the ability to perform at the highest levels that our wing calls for. That’s what we are all about, I really hope this gives you a better sense of “what it takes.”
Redshift, I’m curious, you can do all this in 60 hours, 19 sorties? How many Ip do you have to cover that?
I sure can’t. How many of your fellow pilots went through that already and how many did you qualify?My experience is pretty different, our training program is 10 graded flights. 4 basics + 1 mid grade. Then another 4 + the final checkride.
the cadet can request any training flights he needs between graded flights. they can also train solo or together with other recruits.
Most of the guys wash out around the end of the 1st 5 missions - which is a real shame because the hardest is done because that’s where you learn the F-16 avionics which induce a lot of self study.
Very few are capable to overcome that and continue to the end.As for AAR training, I agree about formation. it’s a waste of time to try AAR before you’re confident with plain formation. But still you can be proficient at formation and still struggle on the boom.
I disagree with the statement that says AAR is easier than some AG stuff. In a sim, IMHO, AAR is one of the hardest thing you can do, especially in a turn.We don’t do AAR straight away. We concentrate on formation first, AAR comes in the second part of our training.
The problem IMHO is unless you’re a large wing with a lot of IP, a lot of graduated pilots and a lot of cadets, you can’t really separate regular TEs from training TE’s. you have to do both at the same time.
On one hand, it’s great, because regular TE’s for recruits is a great way to see where they lack, to motivate to learn more and become more proficient and at the same time it has a training part as well.
On the other hand, it’s bad for the seasoned pilots to have to spoon feed recruits during regular TE’s (although I feel that in the pilot community, we always mentor someone - so to me it’s not especially bad)
but to some pilot, it ruins their enjoyment to see the cooperation and teamwork effort go down the drain because of a recruit pilot. If that recruit can learn from his mistakes, then it’s a good thing though and it will be accepted by the seasoned pilots. If the recruit can’t learn and repeatedly makes the same screw-ups, then it’s a real issue.
We’re back to square one, Type B pilot and the difficulties to deal with them.Again, when you have a large pool of pilots, you can avoid the issue and separate training from regular TE’s. And say for instance you give access to recruit only when they have reached a certain level in the training program.
But with the lack of pilots all around, I find this hard to do.S
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RD,
Totally understand why you’re asking. Absolutely can be done in the time I describe and so far we’ve had great success, but it takes a lot of time. We have 3 IP pilots with myself doing the lions share of training, mostly because I am the most experienced in the wing and my schedule allows. I train in the evenings after the kiddos and wife are in bed, usually after 0100z.
Here’s the thing, yes it is so much material to cover and it is exactly what you think it is: a ton of work for each pilot. I’ve graduated 4 pilots in total in both IQT and MQT. 1 air battle manager that took me about 10 hours to show how to communicate during tactical control. I’ve trained around 15 others that have washed out, completely because it’s too hard. There are 5 pilots currently in training now that are in the final air to ground phase or wrapping up air to air phase so that number is soon about to grow.
I would say my passion makes it possible but I never look at this as work because every time I take a student up I am actually getting to learn more and master my skills, so no matter what even if the student quits it’s a win win.
Here’s my stats from the ARMS system at the 8th:
I’ve trained over 160 sorties and 280 hours in all subjects. It’s also broken down by other categories too. Those numbers will continue to grow (but hopefully slow as my fellow pilots in the wing put on their IP hats too as they grow in knowledge and skill) into the future
As far as perceived difficulty of AAR I find it becomes the least taxing subject in our training program. The bulk of study is on other subjects and it hasn’t been a major issue for us as of yet. One of the best ways to show the student is to remind them that movement around the tanker (or any formation) is relative headings and airspeeds. +/- 5 degrees here and +/- 5 knots there and you can move to any position with ease, assuming your saddled and in position. That reduces a lot of the headaches if you think of it in those terms. Then there are the visual sight pictures, contracts for rejoin, rendezvous, ect.
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thanks for the numbers
So would you agree that you have about 75% washout rates then right? 15/20?We have about 85% washouts
in the beginning, I didn’t really care about the wasted time on these washouts. Because as you said, and as our motto says, you also learn by teaching.
But nowadays it’s harder, because I’m tired of doing the same things and knowing that I only have about 15%-20% chances of success in the long term.
I aspire for more tactical aspects than simply devoting the best of my time to training others who will most likely washout…. -
@Red:
thanks for the numbers
So would you agree that you have about 75% washout rates then right? 15/20?We have about 85% washouts
in the beginning, I didn’t really care about the wasted time on these washouts. Because as you said, and as our motto says, you also learn by teaching.
But nowadays it’s harder, because I’m tired of doing the same things and knowing that I only have about 15%-20% chances of success in the long term.
I aspire for more tactical aspects than simply devoting the best of my time to training others who will most likely washout….Absolutely I’d say that is a good number and around yours for washouts, but now I’m trying to do a better job of screening to reduce that from happening in the first place. I’ve wasted my time and am over that non sense, in short I won’t train unless I feel the person is absolutely serious, passionate and committed now and I’m not afraid to end the training if
It’s not up to expectations anymore. I did a lot more hand holding earlier in our history, but these days I expect and demand pilots will continue to goto the next step. That is the reason I’m trying to be picky now, you spend 20 hours training and someone quits which I agree has gotten old already. Mostly because of the ingenuine nature of the student, they take your best knowledge and time, only to selfishly leave the wing with some sob story about their life getting hectic when really they just are the flake type who won’t admit it to themselves: they’re big fat quitter and this isn’t the first time ;).Come on now, where are the hardcore guys hiding? The ones who can fly solidly 2 wing flights per week?
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I wonder if academic qualifications as in RL might have a place in the screening process. I cant see it being introduced but it is surely a factor in success/failure at the high levels being discussed. Proven ability to study retain and understand knowledge of a technical nature and not quitting.
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Come on now, where are the hardcore guys hiding? The ones who can fly solidly 2 wing flights per week?
After flying 3-4 hours a day/night, almost every night, for a period of 10+ years… we’re tired and retired!
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Come on now, where are the hardcore guys hiding? The ones who can fly solidly 2 wing flights per week?
They got inspired, joined the Air Force and are now flying the real thing and busy as hell
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I wonder if academic qualifications as in RL might have a place in the screening process. I cant see it being introduced but it is surely a factor in success/failure at the high levels being discussed. Proven ability to study retain and understand knowledge of a technical nature and not quitting.
Definitely. The guys who stick around from experience are the real world pilots or student pilots. Every graduate of IQT/MQT has been involved in aviation real world in some way, either commercial or privately. The washouts have been the opposite, just sim pilots who may be very good, but don’t see the same value in doing that much training, they just want to blow stuff up quickly. So I guess previous experience is always a huge plus. My personal and humble opinion… We plan to fly this simulator for 5 or 10 years on average? Might as well learn all the roles, contracts and responsibilities too, right? Hopefully the new blood will come to see that too over time.
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Yup. Seems like the last 7 or so years of my sim experience focused mainly on training and constantly raising the bar. Instructing several students at a time on various steps: IQT/MQT/AQT/Element lead/Flight lead/Package lead/TE build/campaign management. Add that to your own personal gain/enhancements/knowledge and it’s a full plate indeed. This absolutely is a STUDY sim, not just a flight game and I think once a lot of newcomers figure that out they get overwhelmed and disinterested. That, and a lot of people just don’t have the time to invest to become/stay proficient. (I know I don’t anymore).
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I wonder if academic qualifications as in RL might have a place in the screening process. I cant see it being introduced but it is surely a factor in success/failure at the high levels being discussed. Proven ability to study retain and understand knowledge of a technical nature and not quitting.
It’s honestly not a bad idea as I think a large majority of the BMS community has a Bachelor’s degree or equivalent.
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You should avoid the hot air behind the engines of the tanker or you’ll mess up the engine irl, as well as the wing turbulence. You should be in this position when in formation with it
.This I know…already. I’m fine holding, it’s getting and maintaining center on the approach that are my problem…and not chasing the boom! I’m also still trying to figure out what my proper visual cues should be…just need more time practicing. LOTS more time…
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What tools (software) do you use to present topics, how strict are you, what are your benchmarks? and so on.
My intention is to go above the specific SOP’s your wing, squadron, or flight might have. Talk about the craft of teaching the new guys.
I believe the tools have been mentioned, but if it’s ok with you (and everyone else) I’d like to elaborate on the benchmarks a bit. Everyone does it differently; some are pass/fail, some are points values, some are a combination of both with a certain score/percentage being an acceptable “pass”. A lot are based on real-world documentation with a few edits/additions/deletions as needed to fit the needs of the sim. A few specific examples I’ve used in the past are the NAVTRAEQUIPCEN IH-315/AFHRL-TR-79-3 (USN, 1979) and the NAVAIRSYSCOM N00019-81-C-0098 (USN, 1986). Both of these provide specific benchmarks for ACM, and can be “custom tailored” to meet specific DLO’s of a training event. These are just 2 examples, and specifically for ACM training. Combined with other documents and a LOT of seat time, figuring out the best way for an organization to go about the business of instructing specific sorties for specific DLO’s can be made easier, without the necessity of “starting from scratch”.
As for the “craft” of teaching, not everyone learns the same way so an adaptable approach can sometimes be in everyone’s best interest(s). This can be most easily be achieved by having numerous IP’s available for any specific sortie, having one IP with several approaches, or a mix of both. A few reference materials I’ve used for “teaching the teacher” are the Aviation Instructors Handbook (CNAT P-905 PAT) and a Fundamentals of Instruction (there are several out there). These can give the TO or Lead IP’s some assistance in getting their peers up to speed and suggest different approaches to different issues.
There are literally thousands of ways to do it, most organizations have their own standards and most probably share some as well. At the end of the day, as long as the organization knows what they want to do, how to do it, and how to present it… it really comes down to WHO does it.
Hope I didn’t side-track too much, just wanted to give my own insight to the specific questions raised.
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This I know…already. I’m fine holding, it’s getting and maintaining center on the approach that are my problem…and not chasing the boom! I’m also still trying to figure out what my proper visual cues should be…just need more time practicing. LOTS more time…
Dont really know what else to suggest other than stick time. You can get to precontact easily by sticking the gun cross to the boom tip, and stabilising there. Contact is directly forwards of that position. Dont overcorrect, dont use a death grip on the stick, wiggle your fingers and toes. Breathe. If you feel like your formation is a little shaky, practice with the HUD switched off or down.
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Dont really know what else to suggest other than stick time. You can get to precontact easily by sticking the gun cross to the boom tip, and stabilising there. Contact is directly forwards of that position. Dont overcorrect, dont use a death grip on the stick, wiggle your fingers and toes. Breathe. If you feel like your formation is a little shaky, practice with the HUD switched off or down.
+1. Exactly the sort of thing I need to work on.
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Something I needed to add on that list from BW Stevie? I always have to decrease the friction of the throttle. That way, it can’t stay in position and of course is not sticky. I found I have much more control on tiny throttle input that way and it helps my refuelling.
Wiggling toes and releasing the death grip on the controls sounds funny but they tremendously help me as well
For the rest focus on the refueller and nothing else. Don’t look at your HUD, fly formation on the big guyTo come back on topic:
I wonder if academic qualifications as in RL might have a place in the screening process. I cant see it being introduced but it is surely a factor in success/failure at the high levels being discussed. Proven ability to study retain and understand knowledge of a technical nature and not quitting.
They would sure help But would that be feasible in a Sim? I Wonder
Definitely. The guys who stick around from experience are the real world pilots or student pilots. Every graduate of IQT/MQT has been involved in aviation real world in some way, either commercial or privately. The washouts have been the opposite, just sim pilots who may be very good, but don’t see the same value in doing that much training, they just want to blow stuff up quickly. So I guess previous experience is always a huge plus.
Disagreed here. I have seen quite a bit of guys doing perfectly fine without any aviation ties.
It’s also a question of acknoledging the long term. These who can will commit to intense study. Those who don’t see it and consider the sim more as a game won’t. -
@Red:
Disagreed here. I have seen quite a bit of guys doing perfectly fine without any aviation ties.
It’s also a question of acknoledging the long term. These who can will commit to intense study. Those who don’t see it and consider the sim more as a game won’t.You already did a decent write up above, on the types of sim pilots, and I dont want to repeat all of what you said. Without going too much into it, it really does depend on the time you put into it, vs the results you get out. If you and your wing expect a high standard from your pilots, its going to take a lot of effort on the part of the IPs, and on the part of the students. Like Redshift, I see a lot of correlation between folks with a non zero air time, and folks who are prepared to put time and effort into studying the Viper. I dont think there is a causation there, though. As RD says, there are plenty of folks without air time who are prepared to put the hours in for Falcon.
Its hardly the first time Ive voiced this opinion, so Im sure this is familiar to some folks. On the topic of graduate qualifications, I dont think they prove much when it comes to dedication. Both of my housemates have their degrees, one of them has several, working on a masters. Neither of them would be ideal candidates for training by a VFW, though. Time constraints, and a general lack of dedication - neither of them tend to stick to one thing in particular for all that long. Perhaps they are outliers, though.
I think specific qualifications could be of great use for Falcon, and the VFWs who operate using it. The guiding principles behind TCM for a long time looked like they would be something suitable for this, in providing a community standard rating for pilots, who completed their course(s). One big commonality between the various wings is their lack of interoperability for training and operations. Everyone does things slightly differently - or more often, significantly differently. Having an open, community standard qualification would I think make training, and standardisation of training, much easier for a lot of wings.
For the wings who operate significantly differently to the average, it would not help all that much, and the average wing operates at a standard that makes standardisation pointless. So perhaps its not a workable idea. Still, I dont think qualifications are a bad idea, just that having a university degree is not much qualification as to how good a student you are.
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I wonder if academic qualifications as in RL might have a place in the screening process. I cant see it being introduced but it is surely a factor in success/failure at the high levels being discussed. Proven ability to study retain and understand knowledge of a technical nature and not quitting.
The way I understood this, is not that being a real life graduate would help.
Rather in the sense:
Do academic (theoric) exam before starting VFW trainingSay, let’s study the dash1, then pass the theoric exam in the VFW and only if you succeed will the VFW start training you.
and my answer to that was:
They would sure help But would that be feasible in a Sim? I Wonder
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Ah, I see. I dont think its the sim that makes that infeasible, but the limited size of the recruiting pool. Many folks will look at an entrance exam and choose a different wing instead.
Still, its more or less the same as what I advocate anyway - you have ground schooling alongside the flying, and you have evaluation all the way through. If you dont meet the grade, you keep studying till you do - or until you drop out. The only difference I see with doing an exam first is the order its in.
Thinking about it, so long as your entrance test was reasonably short, it would save time on your IPs, and still be a useful selection tool for your applicants. That doesnt sound like a bad idea in principle, to me.