Ramp Start Questions
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There is so much wrong with this video I don’t even know where to begin…
If things are done correctly you should not have all these MFLs. Yes some you will have to clear out in the TEST page but it depends on what the jet has (e.g. ALR-69 vs 56M).
I’ll take your word, given that if I’m not mistaken you’re a real viper driver? For me, I don’t know any better, other than following step by step BMS manuals. I’m not even in a VFS.
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I’ll take your word, given that if I’m not mistake you’re a real viper driver? For me, I don’t know any better, other than following step by step BMS manuals. I’m not even in a VFS.
I currently have FF6 installed (to change the source code myself) so I don’t have BMS installed to check it out. I would say if you are following the BMS manual then these are probably normal for BMS. If you post some of the PFLs I might be able to tell you why it’s throwing that and if it’s normal or not.
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I intended to show things were going the same for me, hence the beginning at 1 minute.
If you want to make this video a bad tutorial, feel free, just don’t make it my initiative. I clearly mentionned it wasn’t meant to be a tutorial at all in the description.
There is so much wrong with this video I don’t even know where to begin…
If things are done correctly you should not have all these MFLs. Yes some you will have to clear out in the TEST page but it depends on what the jet has (e.g. ALR-69 vs 56M).
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I currently have FF6 installed (to change the source code myself) so I don’t have BMS installed to check it out. I would say if you are following the BMS manual then these are probably normal for BMS. If you post some of the PFLs I might be able to tell you why it’s throwing that and if it’s normal or not.
The ones I had were avionics and IFF.
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BMS shows a bunch of MFLs at startup that probably shouldn’t be there in a real jet. Especially if the previous driver cleared his MFLs before shutdown.
A real jet should be pretty much MFL clean on start.
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I repeat what I’ve read but the real F-16 apparently has software to suppress these “routine errors” when starting as systems come online so you don’t start in Christmas tree mode. It makes perfect sense to generate all these warnings about systems that aren’t online yet. That wouldn’t depend on the last flight.
That being the case, it’s only an irritation. Any and all warnings can be cleared easily before takeoff. IFF will naturally appear as a fault as the IFF system itself cannot be turned on in BMS.
If there are any faults you cannot clear by the end of ramp start please detail them. There shouldn’t be.
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BMS shows a bunch of MFLs at startup that probably shouldn’t be there in a real jet. Especially if the previous driver cleared his MFLs before shutdown.
A real jet should be pretty much MFL clean on start.
Not true.
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The ones I had were avionics and IFF.
I’m going to assume you had similar ones to the video?
- EGI AE FAIL
– GPS INOP because the EGI Antenna Electronics Unit has failed (which causes you to lose numerous functions of the jet)
– Based on the video showing the dude turn all his electronics on before even starting the jet (therefore, the MAIN GEN not being online) is why I assume he got this; have seen it real world as a nuisance PFL (should not occur normally) - IFF INM4 DEGR
– Means the Mode4 parameters did not load from the DTC so it’s using the default parameters
– Not sure why this shows up in BMS because the interrogator is not implemented
– If you’re in a Blk40 jet this should not show up - INT NO KEYS
– Obviously crypto isn’t loaded for the interrogator
– Again, should not show up in BMS (since it’s not implemented) and should not show up at all in a Blk40 jet
If you start the jet the way the video shows, I’m surprised there aren’t more PFLs/MFLs. Additionally, pretty sure I saw him actually fire the EPU, which is very very bad…
Some other common ones you might see are:
- CMDS DEGR
- CMDS SEMI DEGR
- CMDS AUTO DEGR
This means that you have a ALR-69 loaded which does not talk to the jet like the -56M does (or you actually have an issue with the -56M).
- HTS KEYS FAIL
Keys not loaded for the HTS pod (however, in BMS this should never be an issue)
- NAV HORZ LIMT
- NAV VERT LIMT
Your blended EGI solution is outside the alarms you have set; important for certain employment such as IAMs. Talking to the dudes in the 8th VFW it sounds like this is not implemented in BMS (yet…) so take it FWIW.
Those are about the only ones you should see on start; anything more than that and you’re doing something wrong or you have issues with your jet.
- EGI AE FAIL
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@ FoxTwoShip
The BMS startup MFL’s are bogus MFL’s
They are not tied to their specific systems, and are there just for eye-candy.
The “bogus” MFL’s where chosen out of a pool of the most common MFL’s that appear on startup. -
@ FoxTwoShip
The BMS startup MFL’s are bogus MFL’s
They are not tied to their specific systems, and are there just for eye-candy.
The “bogus” MFL’s where chosen out of a pool of the most common MFL’s that appear on startup.Leech, copy. I was wondering about that. At least you guys shacked the most common nuisance ones hahaha. Someone has lead the BMS team down the right path!
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Additionally, pretty sure I saw him actually fire the EPU, which is very very bad…
Noticed the same thing. Suggest to the owner of the vid to re-read the checklists which come with BMS in the Docs/ folder because although they suggest in the description of their video that the ramp start is “fast and easy once you are used and focused on it”, the one exemplified here is far from being a correct one.
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Noticed the same thing. Suggest to the owner of the vid to re-read the checklists which come with BMS in the Docs/ folder because although they suggest in the description of their video that the ramp start is “fast and easy once you are used and focused on it”, the one exemplified here is far from being a correct one.
Thanks Netstat, I like the way you bring it. Indeed, I’ll write it again, it’s far from being a correct one, nor a complete one, and had I wanted to make one, I would have followed RedDog’s excellent description step-by-step with spoken commentaries. This video refers to the title of the thread. It also comes to illustrate my quote from BMS-Training.
If you want to talk about that item amongst others, which is quite off-topic here if you want my opinion, I read this part of BMS-Training again and found I wasn’t using EPU/GEN, which I would like to implement in my everyday rampstart; thank you for mentioning that. You quote a sentence containing “very very bad”, which is not very specific - something I find particularly irritating when I’m at work, but that’s not where I am. I have my own BMS-Training quote every time I (used to) run (wrong) this EPU test, which is:
5. Move to the EPU panel and cycle the EPU to OFF and back to NORM. With the mouse make sure you use a left-click to move it from NORM to OFF; a right-click would engage the EPU which is generally avoided on the ground. The real reason is of no significance to us; hydrazine is extremely toxic to ground crews, but we don’t have them in Falcon.
… and in which you can notice two things:
1. left-click and right-click are reversed in comparison to real F4BMS effect, which can be quite confusing and probably played in forcing me into my own understanding when I was learning the standard procedure step by step. I said I had this quote in mind every time, I lied. This first part had vanished because of this confusion.
2. No ground crew. Ooooh yes, I do, I do say “Ground Crew” as a vocal command to have the chokes removed. That is because “Chokes” isn’t recognized correctlyConsidering the off-topic interest aroused by this video, I’ll have to remove it.
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Thanks Netstat, I like the way you bring it. Indeed, I’ll write it again, it’s far from being a correct one, nor a complete one, and had I wanted to make one, I would have followed RedDog’s excellent description step-by-step with spoken commentaries. This video refers to the title of the thread. It also comes to illustrate my quote from BMS-Training.
If you want to talk about that item amongst others, which is quite off-topic here if you want my opinion, I read this part of BMS-Training again and found I wasn’t using EPU/GEN, which I would like to implement in my everyday rampstart; thank you for mentioning that. You quote a sentence containing “very very bad”, which is not very specific - something I find particularly irritating when I’m at work, but that’s not where I am. I have my own BMS-Training quote every time I (used to) run (wrong) this EPU test, which is:
… and in which you can notice two things:
1. left-click and right-click are reversed in comparison to real F4BMS effect, which can be quite confusing and probably played in forcing me into my own understanding when I was learning the standard procedure step by step. I said I had this quote in mind every time, I lied. This first part had vanished because of this confusion.
2. No ground crew. Ooooh yes, I do, I do say “Ground Crew” as a vocal command to have the chokes removed. That is because “Chokes” isn’t recognized correctlyConsidering the off-topic interest aroused by this video, I’ll have to remove it.
I wouldn’t call it off-topic, per se. The issue is that the Viper is a very finicky jet and when things are not done correctly they result in weird PFLs/MFLs(and even when done correctly they’ll sometimes do weird things). So for the OP trying to figure out PFL issues it’s important he’s executing steps correctly.
I checked out the BMS-Training.pdf and it’s very good. There are definitely some things out of order (and there’s slight mention of it in the PDF), but this isn’t the place for a write-up of what could (read: should) be changed.
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I do appreciate your reply. OP’s question was about any fault at all while doing the rampstart as BMS-Training describes it. I think it is normal for the two faults in particular, that are “avionics fault” and “iff”, because I’ve always had them too, from day 1, and because they’re described in the doc, although not directly.
I assumed OP’s question was about BMS. I wouldn’t make any comment about the real jets.
Only RedDog and other devs could give the OP a final answer on his specific question if I read it well, but I kind of suspect they already have, somewhere… Several times…
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I’m going to assume you had similar ones to the video?
- EGI AE FAIL
– GPS INOP because the EGI Antenna Electronics Unit has failed (which causes you to lose numerous functions of the jet)
– Based on the video showing the dude turn all his electronics on before even starting the jet (therefore, the MAIN GEN not being online) is why I assume he got this; have seen it real world as a nuisance PFL (should not occur normally) - IFF INM4 DEGR
– Means the Mode4 parameters did not load from the DTC so it’s using the default parameters
– Not sure why this shows up in BMS because the interrogator is not implemented
– If you’re in a Blk40 jet this should not show up - INT NO KEYS
– Obviously crypto isn’t loaded for the interrogator
– Again, should not show up in BMS (since it’s not implemented) and should not show up at all in a Blk40 jet
If you start the jet the way the video shows, I’m surprised there aren’t more PFLs/MFLs. Additionally, pretty sure I saw him actually fire the EPU, which is very very bad…
Some other common ones you might see are:
- CMDS DEGR
- CMDS SEMI DEGR
- CMDS AUTO DEGR
This means that you have a ALR-69 loaded which does not talk to the jet like the -56M does (or you actually have an issue with the -56M).
- HTS KEYS FAIL
Keys not loaded for the HTS pod (however, in BMS this should never be an issue)
- NAV HORZ LIMT
- NAV VERT LIMT
Your blended EGI solution is outside the alarms you have set; important for certain employment such as IAMs. Talking to the dudes in the 8th VFW it sounds like this is not implemented in BMS (yet…) so take it FWIW.
Those are about the only ones you should see on start; anything more than that and you’re doing something wrong or you have issues with your jet.
Thanks for that. I have a lot to learn. Sadly, I don’t have the time to learn BMS or the Viper to the fullest, so ‘it’ll do’ is the approach I’m giving it so far until I’ve been able to put the time in to learn it more detailed. Also, as much as I wish I had what it takes to be a fighter pilot, I’m not flying BMS as if I’m doing it for real. I’m taking a much more casual approach, but do enjoy playing with the different systems that the Viper employs.
Do you fly the real thing? You seem to know the the inside out and I’ve always gotten the impression that you fly them for real.
- EGI AE FAIL
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Thanks for that. I have a lot to learn. Sadly, I don’t have the time to learn BMS or the Viper to the fullest, so ‘it’ll do’ is the approach I’m giving it so far until I’ve been able to put the time in to learn it more detailed. Also, as much as I wish I had what it takes to be a fighter pilot, I’m not flying BMS as if I’m doing it for real. I’m taking a much more casual approach, but do enjoy playing with the different systems that the Viper employs.
Do you fly the real thing? You seem to know the the inside out and I’ve always gotten the impression that you fly them for real.
Yes I do.
I post a lot at the 8th VFW and those dudes are pretty full up on realism. I forget that not everyone wants that level. I do try to provide the best answer I can provide so if people want to learn something they can and so it helps the BMS devs.
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Yes I do.
I post a lot at the 8th VFW and those dudes are pretty full up on realism. I forget that not everyone wants that level. I do try to provide the best answer I can provide so if people want to learn something they can and so it helps the BMS devs.
I mean no disrespect, and it awesomely cool that we have a few Viper pilots on these forums. I just don’t have time to sit down and properly practice and train. I’d love to, but realistically I just want to have fun and play around with all the switches I’ve always wondered how BMS devs have such detailed access to the avionics. I’ve always wondered how close to the real thing F4 is over the years. Comparing BMS to a real block 40 or 50, how close are we in terms of FM and avionics (classified stuff aside)?
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If you want to talk about that item amongst others, which is quite off-topic here if you want my opinion, I read this part of BMS-Training again and found I wasn’t using EPU/GEN, which I would like to implement in my everyday rampstart; thank you for mentioning that. You quote a sentence containing “very very bad”, which is not very specific - something I find particularly irritating when I’m at work, but that’s not where I am. I have my own BMS-Training quote every time I (used to) run (wrong) this EPU test, which is:
indeed, EPU testing is part of the ramp start.
But during EPU test, we don’t fire the EPU it stays in NORM. As i understand, the confusion comes from the right click, left click issues, and the stupid switch guard behaviour in the code - So a mistake totally understandable.
(to me a switchguard in the code should have it’s own mouse click)As for PFLs during ramps, it’s (to me) pretty normal to have faults reported as systems are booting up or going through bits.
As Leech said, the bms team induced some eyecandy PFL during ramps for obvious reasons (a constantly black PFD isn’t quite realistic either)
and none of these faults are sticking at the end of the ramp, when you’re ready to taxi, your pfd should be blank and no faults reported.
this is the case, when you do the ramp as per dash1 & training manual instructions -
I repeat what I’ve read but the real F-16 apparently has software to suppress these “routine errors” when starting as systems come online so you don’t start in Christmas tree mode. It makes perfect sense to generate all these warnings about systems that aren’t online yet. That wouldn’t depend on the last flight.
[…] IFF will naturally appear as a fault as the IFF system itself cannot be turned on in BMS.
If a system isn’t on, it’s not going to generate an error. That’s why it does depend on the last flight. That’s why these IFF errors also technically shouldn’t be there since we don’t have IFF in BMS / it’s turned off.
Not true.
Guess it differs per block then…
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If a system isn’t on, it’s not going to generate an error.
disagree
systems needs to boot, warm, bit. so they are powered up but aren’t serviceable. during that time it is normal to see fault messages generated