Engine start and idle detent question
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I just assign my throttle via the Setup page - I’m assuming some extraordinary measure needs be taken to use DX, or does that do it?
He’s saying what you’re doing is DX.
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He’s saying what you’re doing is DX.
Ok - had no idea one way or the other. I know (or think I know…) I need to do something other than what I’m doing to assign buttons, switches, etc. using DX in a keyfile…right? I haven’t gotten that deep into building things up yet. But that still goes back to my thinking “it just works this way”.
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Ok - had no idea one way or the other. I know (or think I know…) I need to do something other than what I’m doing to assign buttons, switches, etc. using DX in a keyfile…right? I haven’t gotten that deep into building things up yet. But that still goes back to my thinking “it just works this way”.
If you assign buttons in the UI (click the command in the list to highlight; click your HOTAS button to assign) that is DX also. The are other ways, outside of the UI, to get ‘more’ out of DX, such as shift state functionality, etc. For example: https://www.benchmarksims.org/forum/showthread.php?28498-Video-Guide-to-a-Basic-Keyfile-Using-Kolbe-s-Keyfile-Editor
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If you assign buttons in the UI (click the command in the list to highlight; click your HOTAS button to assign) that is DX also. The are other ways, outside of the UI, to get ‘more’ out of DX, such as shift state functionality, etc. For example: https://www.benchmarksims.org/forum/showthread.php?28498-Video-Guide-to-a-Basic-Keyfile-Using-Kolbe-s-Keyfile-Editor
Yeah…that’s the sort of thing I’m associating with DX. I’m going to need to do some shift state stuff eventually (quite a bit, I think), but I haven’t gotten to that point in my pit build so I’m a rookie on the lingo. Right now I’m working gauges and MFDs…thanks.
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This post is deleted! -
Checking Idle cutoff in the config is, if performed as the only step, a simple case of misconfiguring the software and blaming it on the software.
You also need to set the position of the detent, and by default it is positioned at the very back of the throttle movement. Which means the software considers you already to have advanced the throttle over the detent.
If you want it to work you need to also set the detent position in setup, by positioning the throttle just aft of the detent position and right clicking the set AB button. Left clicking sets the green AB line, right clicking the red IDLE line.
If I read this correctly, if you tick the idle detent in the configuration, you do get around the mess of not having to click the detent lever or Alt i. However, if you do, you will not be able to shutdown normally. Because if the idle detent is not configured for your physical throttle, then the below idle position will never be reached. Basically, the idle detent configuration is intended to be used for folks who have a physical detent on their throttle setup. Otherwise, you can easily shutdown in flight, or any regime in that matter unintentionally. Am I correct?
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Yup.
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@Stubbies, that would be a software setup. Doesnt help that the WH throttle is not exactly like the real aircraft (shape is somewhat wrong… among other things).
Well yes of course the WH throttle looks completely different but I am talking more function than cosmetics. The functionality is 100% the same as with the real aircraft you have to hold the pinky switch to allow the throttle to move into cutoff. With the WH it is not a pinky switch but lifting up on the throttle to allow it to go into cutoff. Different physical methods and looks but exactly the same effect.
The only concern is that there is zero travel in the throttle while in the IDLE position. You must have the throttle above IDLE (even if only slightly so) to keep the engine on - the setup I described would mitigate the issue, but not do away with it entirely. Its saving grace is that as BMS does not model variability in fuel consumption at IDLE, having throttle slightly above IDLE results in a pph still well within the allowable range.
At ground idle I am roughly 850 PPH. I don’t think that is above idle. I don’t have any artificial boost to the throttle so that when I am at idle that I am actually above idle. Per Morphine’s code the low end of the throttle is at 5% and that is exactly where I have the red line at.
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Well that is 150 pph higher than bms IDLE. So.
Its worth pointing out that the methods overlap, as the real aircraft requires depressing the cutoff trigger as well as a rotation outboard (lifting the inboard end) to get past IDLE, and drops back down into the OFF position.
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Its worth pointing out that the methods overlap, as the real aircraft requires depressing the cutoff trigger as well as a rotation outboard (lifting the inboard end) to get past IDLE, and drops back down into the OFF position.
I understand how the real detent works - just curious if theres any electronics/sensors on the switch, or is it purely a hardware lock of sorts to prevent the pilot entering or leaving the cut off by mistake?
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Hardware lock.
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I understand how the real detent works - just curious if theres any electronics/sensors on the switch, or is it purely a hardware lock of sorts to prevent the pilot entering or leaving the cut off by mistake?
Hardware only to prevent accidentally going into cutoff. Not needed for moving from cutoff to idle. In the F-16 the throttle quadrant is physically connected all the way back to the engine and moving the throttle in the cockpit moves a part back at the engine.
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Well that is 150 pph higher than bms IDLE. So.
So this proves nothing as it is also 850 below BMS idle per the BMS manual. The idle PPH should also change depending on block of aircraft. If I was truly over idle I would be pushing myself around a lot more than normally happens from idle thrust.
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Hardware only to prevent accidentally going into cutoff. Not needed for moving from cutoff to idle. In the F-16 the throttle quadrant is physically connected all the way back to the engine and moving the throttle in the cockpit moves a part back at the engine.
This is your experience based on you personally advancing the throttle from OFF into IDLE without needing to rotate the throttle? The shape of the throttle guide would seem as though such a rotation is required, to clear the notch at cutoff.
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This is your experience based on you personally advancing the throttle from OFF into IDLE without needing to rotate the throttle? The shape of the throttle guide would seem as though such a rotation is required, to clear the notch at cutoff.
Apparently I didn’t break down his post enough as when I am talking about not required ref Planehazza I am talking about his wondering about electronic/sensors on the switch. Yes of course you have to rotate outboard to get it out of cutoff.
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Hi all -
It looks like this thread has run its course; but I can’t help but chime in -
I am trying to take advantage of TM WH’s Idle Detent feature. I’m running with Hardware > Idle Cutoff un-checked in the launcher’s configuration, and have managed to set-up DX in the key file such that “SimThrottleIdleDetent” is asserted both on activating (‘pressing’) and on de-activating (‘releasing’) TM WH’s Idle Detent ‘button’. Note that TM WH’s Idle Detent occurs entirely below the minimum throttle position -What I’ve realized is that “SimThrottleIdleDetent” appears to work like a STROBE rather than like a TOGGLE. That is, it doesn’t appear to TOGGLE a state (Idle Detent) on/off, but instead appears to kick-off an action (based on throttle position as described in Frederf’s 9/26 post “That’s the key word, expect …”). This threw me a curve, as it seems fundamentally different from the real jet’s distinct idle cut-off latch states (latched or un-latched). In retrospect, the action is apparent from absence of e.g. “IdleCutOff_ON” and “IdleCutOff_OFF” call backs.
And I see per Red Dog’s 9/26 post “The [SimThrottleIdleDetent] is just a software detent overcoming that issue [of users that don’t have physical detents in their throttle]” (i.e. the call-back appears to be a work-around). But for TM WH owner’s, using the physical detent feature seems at first to be the default choice -
But I would say that it doesn’t quite play out correctly:
(the bit about having to diddle the throttle before sim will recognize it is omitted from below)in the jet, with engine running (on tarmac) -
roll back TM WH throttle to idle (lowest position) -
- engine spools down to idle (~70%) RPM
(throttle is at minimum axis setting - idle)
assert “SimThrottleIdleDetent” (in my case, lift and pull throttle back to detent position)
- I know that the call-back occurs from its ‘click’ sound in the sim -
- I know that the call-back occurs because engine slowly spools down to 0% RPM -
(throttle remains at minimum axis setting - idle)
assert “SimJfsStart” -
- engine slowly spools up to 20% RPM
(throttle remains at minimum axis setting - idle)
assert “SimThrottleIdleDetent” (in my case, lift and push throttle back out of detent)
- I know that the call-back occurs from its ‘click’ sound in the sim -
(throttle remains at minimum axis setting - idle)
*** AT THIS POINT, I’d expect the engine to begin spooling up to idle, since I’ve taken it out of ‘detent’ ***
- NO ENGINE SPOOL-UP, BECAUSE TM WH throttle can’t possibly yet be above it’s minimum axis position when “SimThrottleIdleDetent” is asserted -
(can’t possibly be above the minimum GUI-defined idle cut-off position)
move throttle position up a bit (but not yet above the GUI-defined idle cut-off position)
- NO ENGINE SPOOL-UP, BECAUSE throttle is not yet above the GUI-defined idle cut-off position
assert “SimThrottleIdleDetent” (this time, via keyboard)
- NO ENGINE SPOOL-UP, BECAUSE throttle is still not yet above the GUI-defined idle cut-off postition
move throttle position up a bit more (this time to above the GUI-defined idle cut-off position)
*** AT THIS POINT, I might also expect the engine to begin spooling up ***
- NO ENGINE SPOOL-UP, BECAUSE the code needs “SimThrottleIdleDetent” [STROBE] to occur once throttle is above the GUI-defined idle cut-off position
assert “SimThrottleIdleDetent” (this time, via keyboard)
- engine spools-up!! (to greater than idle RPM)
pull back throttle to idle position
- engine spools-back to idle -
Even though I have a reasonably representative ‘idle detent’ feature in the ThrustMaster WartHog throttle, the BMS code still seems to require a key_stroke “SimThrottleIdleDetent” to kick-off the engine spool-up (the TM WH detent feature cannot occur with throttle off of minimum axis position). And this seems to be BECAUSE “SimThrottleIdleDetent” is implemented as a STROBE rather than a TOGGLE. And I don’t think there’s any KeyFile magic that can turn a STROBE into a TOGGLE (because a STROBE fundamentally doesn’t know about ‘assert’ and ‘de-assert’) -
Well, it has been ‘fun’ reading these posts (especially the real jet videos), and figuring out how this jet start works -
And now that I know, … it’s all good! Hope the above helps others understand it as well - - engine spools down to idle (~70%) RPM
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If you have a Warthog and are willig to use a script, Morphine’s solution is to me the most elegant. That’s what I use.
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If you have a Warthog and are willig to use a script, Morphine’s solution is to me the most elegant. That’s what I use.
+1 to Morphine’s brilliant engine start/stop code. This allows the WH to behave exactly like the real aircraft and you never have to touch the keyboard. The only way to fly with a WH in BMS for me.
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Thanks I3, Stubbies -
I tinkered with TARGET briefly to turn-off the dang LEDs at computer wake-up. But haven’t done much with in since -
Morphine’s TARGET set-up seems very highly regarded! Will check it out (once I figure out where to find it for download) -
Thanks I3, Stubbies -
I tinkered with TARGET briefly to turn-off the dang LEDs at computer wake-up. But haven’t done much with in since -
Morphine’s TARGET set-up seems very highly regarded! Will check it out (once I figure out where to find it for download)Try the Warthog section on these forums ��