How many of us MP BMS guys (and gals?) are there anyways?
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The level of knowledge and practice is an issue from when sims started to MP.
The continues participation is another. Real squadrons have this limited down, pilots r obliged to do it.
Virtual pilots are not and when bored or distracted they flee.
So a pool of members is always needed to keep a limited members participation.Reaching a high level of common expertize in bms for a whole squad is utopic nonexisting even after many years. Members come and go. But for sure is structured and there is a minimum base of knowledge that unifies them oposed to anything else that is just a furbal.
I keep reading about a fix of the code to support hordes of clients.
Well aint actually the case. Iirc the mp code guy said the previous had issues so he reverted back starting from scratch to narrow it down. What he could kinda warranty was the provided one which is way better than before. The rest will follow. So its in the procces of implementing things and not fixing actually. The fixing most probably would relly on the falcon core code and not the mp code.sent from my mi5 using Tapatalk
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Vandal’s scenario is actually what many VFW do nowadays.
The only difference is that it’s not done at the campaign level but rather at the TE level.The campaign issue is the high number of objective and features that have to be shared and that is the core of the issues in MP and hence why FO had stability problem
A dedicated campaign with less objectives is the answer to these issues - but that’s another debate.A TE has always much less activity than a campaign and is bearable for the MP code.
8-12 shippers (maybe more but that’s the ballpark figure we usually reach) are quite stable.The VFW level of dedictation can be different and can be mixed as well. It does work with no real issue.
At Zipgun’s initiative ViperDrivers often fly with 185th guys in the above scenario and we’re happy with the way it provides both squads with other views of the challenges, the different SOPs are slowly blended together and I think I can say we all enjoy our flights.
It’s a great way to bring usual VFW intern flight from 4 seats to 8 or even 12 seats.I think that VFW should not be drastically different, but as long as respect for the other’s VFW views in involved it should work.
I also think that it doesn’t come all of a sudden to top level, it’s built slowly.
It’s a great and flexible way today to increase the pool of pilots in a VFW.Of course it does bring another problem: you need guys to create TE’s
We’re lucky to have a few and we just found another one as we flew the first TE of Malc’s which was very entertaining to say the least -
Not to mention the thirteen million military and fourteen million civilian Russian casualties during WWII….they payed the highest price for our freedom.
Not only could I prove that wrong, but I have and I did it on the clock. American values inherently insure we are all entitled to our opinions.
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I have flown 4.33U3 campaign missions with 28+ players with very minor issues (1 guy not having the bandwidth). Now that was a European server with tons of bandwidth. I’m in the U.S. and in one mission I got a couple of stutters.
For myself, I just have residential cable from a crap company and I was able to host 6 players no problems at all.
So when you schedule to check out the campaign you want to put how many slots you have and if it’s a “shakedown” flight. So, if you have successfully hosted 6, but never 8, that should be disclosed. I found that certain people really enjoy helping you do shakedowns because they are generally givers, but also because they want more and more people to be hosting missions. So they sign up.
What you want is a protocol for scheduling that requires that sort of disclosure and it should all be good.
@Mortesil I think I must have explained myself poorly. It’s primarily a service that makes it easy for squadrons to co-op. So I am not talking about 4 random guys getting tossed into a flight together, I am suggesting each flight be from the same squadron. This scheduling service would be really cool for a lot of squadrons because anytime you can stitch together 2 to 4 guys you can now join a 6 to 28+ mission.
Centralized scheduling with general protocols with decentralized hosting and more specific protocols. It’s just a matter of some squadron leaders getting together and hashing out the details.
Yeah there would have to be a way to select how many say KTO campaigns could be going on and who got to be the moderator for that campaign, but that doesn’t have to be done by one person. I would think you would want representative/liaisons from the various squadrons to act as the board and most likely elect the CEO or “master of theaters”. The board could decide how many campaigns are going to be open (I would suggest 1 per theater at the start just to get folks to fly together and used to the spirit that you don’t have to have everything your way to enjoy a campaign). Or the board could pass that job onto the CEO. Similarly, the policy for who will be a theater moderator would probably be proposed by the CEO and approved by the board. Then the CEO would be responsible for seeing to it that the policy was carried out.
If you are excited about the general idea and your squadron has a seat at the table, well there’s not really much more that you can ask for. I mean you are basically entering into a virtual NATO and no one will get everything they want but most will get enough of what they want to make being a part of it worthwhile. This doesn’t have to take away from what your squadron does internally, it just is a unified way for squadrons to get together and fly.
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I have flown 4.33U3 campaign missions with 28+ players with very minor issues (1 guy not having the bandwidth).
What bandwidth is required for BMS 4.33U3 online campaign missions? I’m only on a crappy VDSL connection myself with DSLAM sync of 30 Mb/s down and 4.5 Mb/s up max. (Actual ISP throughout, in particular to overseas servers will be quite a bit less than that!). Would that be sufficient to join an Aussie or US server, given that I probably can loose a few fingers on my hand and still be able to count all BMS players in New Zealand on one hand!
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What bandwidth is required for BMS 4.33U3 online campaign missions? I’m only on a crappy VDSL connection myself with DSLAM sync of 30 Mb/s down and 4.5 Mb/s up max. (Actual ISP throughout, in particular to overseas servers will be quite a bit less than that!). Would that be sufficient to join an Aussie or US server, given that I probably can loose a few fingers on my hand and still be able to count all BMS players in New Zealand on one hand!
You guys can count ?
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What bandwidth is required for BMS 4.33U3 online campaign missions? I’m only on a crappy VDSL connection myself with DSLAM sync of 30 Mb/s down and 4.5 Mb/s up max. (Actual ISP throughout, in particular to overseas servers will be quite a bit less than that!). Would that be sufficient to join an Aussie or US server, given that I probably can loose a few fingers on my hand and still be able to count all BMS players in New Zealand on one hand!
Not that crapy at all. Its 3-4 times faster than mine.
If u want to host, u will be able to host 4 guys. If u want to be client u r fine.sent from my mi5 using Tapatalk
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You guys can count ?
Yes, it’s really easy… like the number of times you guys defeated the All Blacks… :wfish:
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Yes, it’s really easy… like the number of times you guys defeated the All Blacks… :wfish:
When you guys send a team over it costs very little, as most of them are already here. :drink:
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@theOden:
We try to offer folks to fly lonewolf if not comfortable talking in a foreign language or with us in seperate flights or in our flights on or off IVC.
We do see alot of visitors reading our adventures (and failures) but very few actually bite and join the server.Interesting thread and comments. As Oden said, the concept behind our server is a bit different perhaps than some others. The stuff Redshift and players like him are doing is fantastic, but I think it only appeals to a limited number of potential F4 MP players.
I think the focus should be on players who want to fly MP, but do not, for whatever reason. There are surely many who love F4, but have no desire to fly MP. All’s good. But what I am interested in are those players that train, fight and fly F4, that have a desire to join the multiplayer community, but for whatever reason they are not taking the plunge. How many are there? Hard to say, but I think it’s reasonable to expect quite a few.
A number of potential causes have been mentioned here. If I had to take a guess, I’d say it’s fear. Not terror of course, but more the fear of embarrassment, fear of screwing up, of looking the fool. Let’s face it, F4 BMS is the pinnacle of the jet flight sim genre. There are many highly accomplished players. They know all of the systems and procedures. If you were a fledgling F4 MP-hopeful, what would be going through your mind? Yes let me jump in with these guys, knowing a fraction of what they do. What could go wrong? So you end up with this cycle of guys saying yes, I’d love to join you, but i just need to brush up on this or that first and I’ll be ready to go. But that’s a fool’s errand, because as soon as they work out that thing, there is another thing that they need to brush up on first.
Those of us who are flying MP and encouraging new guys to join always trot out the line “You’ll learn more in a few MP flights with a seasoned vet than you will in weeks/months/years/ of flying offline”. Well, that’s true, isn’t it? But it doesn’t work worth a damn, does it? Why? If the prospective MP pilot is just hoping to know more, then wouldn’t the best and fastest way to accomplish that (flying online with vets) be the obvious choice? Yes, but it doesn’t cause them to do it. And that’s why I think it comes down to that fear of looking the fool. No one wants to be the guy who scrapes his pipe on landing, or doesn’t know how to turn his laser on, or how to set up the package on the datalink. So they get stuck in the cycle of training. They feel the need to know everything before they will feel comfortable in MP. And very few will know everything about F4 BMS. And so it goes….
The concept behind our server is designed to mitigate this to some extent. We have no requirement to fly with another, or to even use voice comms. As I like to say, just hop on and do the voodoo that you do. Want to fly an interdiction? Have at it. A strike? A BARCAP? Ripple durandals down a runway? Go get 'em. Players are free to join whenever they want, in any squadron or plane, to fly however they see fit, with or without another human. Or we will take them up for a few flights. It’s all good, literally.
And still, we struggle for participation. It’s frustrating, because I can think of little else we can do to mitigate any reservations a player might have for taking the MP plunge. There will always be brave noobs, who just join because they aren’t afraid of looking the fool. I’d reckon that most of us who are flying multiplayer were this guy once. “Yeah, I don’t really know shit, but I want to fly MP, so I will!” And those are the guys who become the seasoned vets. We all screwed up in front of our peers (and still do), but we became better virtual F4 drivers because of it. So it comes down to the mindset of each individual guy. Some take the plunge, some hold back. All we can do is keep encouraging, extending invitations for a private hop or two, taking them under our wings until they are ready to leave the nest on their own wings, so to speak. It’s a mental barrier, and once broken through, you have a MP player for life. Or at least, that’s my take.
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Not that crapy at all. Its 3-4 times faster than mine.
If u want to host, u will be able to host 4 guys. If u want to be client u r fine.sent from my mi5 using Tapatalk
There isn’t much difference between hosting and being a client. You still may have to upload to all the clients connected. This depends on how players enter the 3D, and where they are in relation to each other (IOW: Bubbles…) The BMS manual states ~40kbps per client connected IIRC, but I don’t believe that accounts for the connection overhead (~10% local and 30% for long distance or cross-ISP connections). I think it’s a little low regardless, with 20-25 players as a normal client I was seeing between 2.2-3 Mbps upload, which is closer to 100-120kbps per client. It can start getting tricky when you are going long distances due to big ISP/networking issues as well.
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Im talking about minimums. Bellow minimums u have major issues. Above mins the code uses whatever bw is available and manages accordingly.
sent from my mi5 using Tapatalk
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There will always be brave noobs, who just join because they aren’t afraid of looking the fool. I’d reckon that most of us who are flying multiplayer were this guy once. “Yeah, I don’t really know shit, but I want to fly MP, so I will!” And those are the guys who become the seasoned vets.
LOL! This takes me back to Falcon3.0 and the H2H BBS here in the UK. I was so much this guy, I pretended to be someone else just in case. Turned out I was actually quite good at it, and ended up on top of the ladder… I guess the moral of this little story is - what you waiting for? Take the plunge, you never know what might happen!
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A number of potential causes have been mentioned here. If I had to take a guess, I’d say it’s fear. Not terror of course, but more the fear of embarrassment, fear of screwing up, of looking the fool. Let’s face it, F4 BMS is the pinnacle of the jet flight sim genre. There are many highly accomplished players. They know all of the systems and procedures. If you were a fledgling F4 MP-hopeful, what would be going through your mind? Yes let me jump in with these guys, knowing a fraction of what they do. What could go wrong? So you end up with this cycle of guys saying yes, I’d love to join you, but i just need to brush up on this or that first and I’ll be ready to go. But that’s a fool’s errand, because as soon as they work out that thing, there is another thing that they need to brush up on first.
Players are free to join whenever they want, in any squadron or plane, to fly however they see fit, with or without another human. Or we will take them up for a few flights. It’s all good, literally……
Not familiar with the server in question but it sounds in some regards similar to the 24/7 campaign run by Veterans-Gaming. The VG server is ideal for people to
have a go
. Frequently seeViper
as name and maybe that is sometimes a player going incognito or not specially with that intent. For those not able or willing to commit time to a VFS these rather few public servers are a good alternative both for fun and to learn as you go with an element of anonymity if desired. -
For the purpose of helping new multi users and older ones meet and fly together, I also started a Discord channel that might be useful to more than a few. I already managed to use it for a couple flights. I’m not making a big public announcement or something like it, but I let it grow slowly first. Have a look by yourself.
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these rather few public servers are a good alternative both for fun and to learn as you go with an element of anonymity if desired.
Yes, and I think that having the ability to just fly ‘singleplayer’ in a MP server is sort of a bridge between what they’ve been doing and what they want to do. Maybe their goal is to join a VFW and fly that way. But some guys won’t want to go straight from one to the other extreme. So ours lets guys fly multiplayer without multiple players necessarily. They can go to Falconara or Gino Lisa or Palese and fly a mission solo. Or they can join others. I think once a guy gets a taste, maybe has some success, and he sees that hey, this isn’t so different than what I am already doing. And he has stepped on the first stone on the path to flying with other players.
We make no effort to portray what we do as ‘realistic’ in the sense that you’re part of the USAF or something. Our rules are
1. Have fun.
2. Kill Red stuff.That’s it. It’s a MP sandbox.
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Yes, and I think that having the ability to just fly ‘singleplayer’ in a MP server is sort of a bridge between what they’ve been doing and what they want to do. Maybe their goal is to join a VFW and fly that way. But some guys won’t want to go straight from one to the other extreme. So ours lets guys fly multiplayer without multiple players necessarily. They can go to Falconara or Gino Lisa or Palese and fly a mission solo. Or they can join others. I think once a guy gets a taste, maybe has some success, and he sees that hey, this isn’t so different than what I am already doing. And he has stepped on the first stone on the path to flying with other players.
We make no effort to portray what we do as ‘realistic’ in the sense that you’re part of the USAF or something. Our rules are
1. Have fun.
2. Kill Red stuff.That’s it. It’s a MP sandbox.
I like a lot of what you say, it’s really good to hear about your server, I may pop in sometime to check it out. My only question is why is everyone so afraid of doing it “real?” What’s the hang up in this community? Is it that we don’t use our real names, everyone is a callsign that they’re trying to live up to a persona and not tarnish it? I think that could be a factor too. In FSX (which can get you sprayed with holy water around here :p) people actually register with their real names which makes everything much more personal and you don’t see the sort of push and pull that comes with BMS.
For example there is a group called vUSAF and they’re run by a couple retired AF dudes who simulate pretty well the admin side of the military in addition to the tactical. Now mind your they’re not doing things near what we do overall in the community, it’s more peace time ops, but they go so far as to salute senior commanders upon arrival into TS and all kinds of stuff you don’t see anywhere else. You have guys in FSX on the commercial airline side who simulate everything there is about a passenger flight, from the dispatch sheet, routing, ATC, ETOPS and the Atlantic/Pacific tracks, re-dispatch, the whole 9 yards, but nobody bats an eye. Some don’t do this, that’s a given in any flight simulation community, but by and large a huge number of folks go “full realism.”
Granted there is probably a larger percentage of users playing FSX/P3D in conjunction with VATSIM because they’re either in flight training or aspire to be, but I think we as a group could be served well by getting rid of the “just good enough” mentality and trying harder. Also people need to stop being scared of MP, it’s not that bad, even when you screw up, it’s all in your head. At our wing, we have an ethos: “steel toed shoes.” You are going to make mistakes, you are going to get torched in debrief and in flight if you’re in training. That goes with the territory, but it doesn’t ever mean that we think less of a pilot because he made a mistake, it’s just a sliver in time, something that needs correction, and debriefed the right way, the pilot wont make the mistake again because he knows within himself he is better than that. Be brave, take the plunge into MP with whoever you choose, it doesn’t matter where you go, you will get better flying with other people.
In my own case, I didn’t develop this knowledge overnight, it took a slow build to get to where I am today, but I wouldn’t have it any other way. In fact it took me 2 different VFWs to finally decide that I’d be better off creating my own, so that I could fly how I wanted to simulate BMS and hopefully inspire others to do so myself. It’s all what you put in, that’s what you’ll get out of this beast. You can definitely invest a lot more when you fly with other people and you learn at a much faster rate because someone can identify what you need to fix usually better than you can on your own. A combination of group and self study is the key to success imho and not just flying for the sake of flying, make every flight count and be with purpose, whether it’s a difficult training TE or a grueling combat flight full of stress. Each flight makes you more experienced and makes you better than the last.
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I like a lot of what you say, it’s really good to hear about your server, I may pop in sometime to check it out. My only question is why is everyone so afraid of doing it “real?” What’s the hang up in this community? Is it that we don’t use our real names, everyone is a callsign that they’re trying to live up to a persona and not tarnish it? I think that could be a factor too. In FSX (which can get you sprayed with holy water around here :p) people actually register with their real names which makes everything much more personal and you don’t see the sort of push and pull that comes with BMS.
For example there is a group called vUSAF and they’re run by a couple retired AF dudes who simulate pretty well the admin side of the military in addition to the tactical. Now mind your they’re not doing things near what we do overall in the community, it’s more peace time ops, but they go so far as to salute senior commanders upon arrival into TS and all kinds of stuff you don’t see anywhere else. You have guys in FSX on the commercial airline side who simulate everything there is about a passenger flight, from the dispatch sheet, routing, ATC, ETOPS and the Atlantic/Pacific tracks, re-dispatch, the whole 9 yards, but nobody bats an eye. Some don’t do this, that’s a given in any flight simulation community, but by and large a huge number of folks go “full realism.”
Granted there is probably a larger percentage of users playing FSX/P3D in conjunction with VATSIM because they’re either in flight training or aspire to be, but I think we as a group could be served well by getting rid of the “just good enough” mentality and trying harder. Also people need to stop being scared of MP, it’s not that bad, even when you screw up, it’s all in your head. At our wing, we have an ethos: “steel toed shoes.” You are going to make mistakes, you are going to get torched in debrief and in flight if you’re in training. That goes with the territory, but it doesn’t ever mean that we think less of a pilot because he made a mistake, it’s just a sliver in time, something that needs correction, and debriefed the right way, the pilot wont make the mistake again because he knows within himself he is better than that. Be brave, take the plunge into MP with whoever you choose, it doesn’t matter where you go, you will get better flying with other people.
In my own case, I didn’t develop this knowledge overnight, it took a slow build to get to where I am today, but I wouldn’t have it any other way. In fact it took me 2 different VFWs to finally decide that I’d be better off creating my own, so that I could fly how I wanted to simulate BMS and hopefully inspire others to do so myself. It’s all what you put in, that’s what you’ll get out of this beast. You can definitely invest a lot more when you fly with other people and you learn at a much faster rate because someone can identify what you need to fix usually better than you can on your own. A combination of group and self study is the key to success imho and not just flying for the sake of flying, make every flight count and be with purpose, whether it’s a difficult training TE or a grueling combat flight full of stress. Each flight makes you more experienced and makes you better than the last.
I think it’s because not everyone shares the same desire to get better. Or to be any better than “good enough”. For some people Flight Sims are a way of life that they make the time and effort to incorporate into their lives. For others it’s a hobby no different than gardening or wood working. Will 99% of the home gardeners out there ever be the next curator at the national botanical gardens? No. People who rebuild a 70s Corvette in the garage open a body shop? Not likely. It’s just a hobby. Something you enjoy doing, in your own way, in your own time, at your own pace. To do it “real” requires a lot of work. And if you don’t have the true interest in the flying/sim/mil jet community, it’s exactly that: work. Some people just want to have fun, and for them that may mean 2 hours a week, or 1 sortie a month, or whatever they can squeeze in. And they want it to be fun, not work. Sometimes flying just for the sake of flying is all you want to do, because in your eyes you are good enough, which is good enough.
I think this is kind of what he was talking about though that instills a certain amount of hesitation in people. I’m not training to go out and kill or put other people’s lives in my hands because it’s a sim. I don’t always want to be torched in a debrief because you (Generic sense, not you Redshift) think I was breaking too early on an overhead, or losing visual in a mock engagement. I might just want to go up and fly with people and relax and have a good time. I think that is the point he is trying to make. And I commend him for encouraging that kind of flyer to join the mix. The VFW, strict IQT mentality everything by the book is great for the people who like the structure, and thrive on the challenge to get bet better. But it’s not for everyone. And that’s the point I was trying to make earlier. Neither way is better or worse than the other, they’re just different play styles.
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When you guys send a team over it costs very little, as most of them are already here. :drink:
Yes, that was us generously raising the average IQ of both countries
We make no effort to portray what we do as ‘realistic’ in the sense that you’re part of the USAF or something. Our rules are
1. Have fun.
2. Kill Red stuff.That’s it. It’s a MP sandbox.
Sounds perfect to me. Once I finally have a working HOTAS again, I will have to work up to get halfway proficient again and I’m definitely keen to hop on and join the fight. And I’m more than happy to fly with anyone that is starting out with Falcon 4.0 and wants to get some MP experience under their belt. I’m no expert by any means (most of my F4 experience is BMS 2.0 and earlier) and I always maintain a sense of humor about this all.
Flying with a VFW is great fun and probably some of the best Falcon 4.0 flights I’ve ever done were with my fellow Straydogs over North Korea. But going as far as pretending to be in the USAF and saluting… I don’t know. I’m just not that type of person I guess. It kinda feels wrong to me because I often work with the USAF (I’m 100% a civilian! though) and I hugely respect those that serve their country in uniform. And while I thoroughly enjoy Falcon 4.0 and I’m nuts about (military) aviation, to me Falcon 4.0 BMS , in all its glory and realism, is still a piece of software I’m running on my personal computer, from the comfort of my own home and purely for my own entertainment. So, in short, that goes back to my original point - that’s why I don’t mind flying with new people even if they are very new to this.
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Yes, that was us generously raising the average IQ of both countries
Sounds perfect to me. Once I finally have a working HOTAS again, I will have to work up to get halfway proficient again and I’m definitely keen to hop on and join the fight. And I’m more than happy to fly with anyone that is starting out with Falcon 4.0 and wants to get some MP experience under their belt. I’m no expert by any means (most of my F4 experience is BMS 2.0 and earlier) and I always maintain a sense of humor about this all.
Flying with a VFW is great fun and probably some of the best Falcon 4.0 flights I’ve ever done were with my fellow Straydogs over North Korea. But going as far as pretending to be in the USAF and saluting… I don’t know. I’m just not that type of person I guess. It kinda feels wrong to me because I often work with the USAF (I’m 100% a civilian! though) and I hugely respect those that serve their country in uniform. And while I thoroughly enjoy Falcon 4.0 and I’m nuts about (military) aviation, to me Falcon 4.0 BMS , in all its glory and realism, is still a piece of software I’m running on my personal computer, from the comfort of my own home and purely for my own entertainment. So, in short, that goes back to my original point - that’s why I don’t mind flying with new people even if they are very new to this.
As a grandson of a 2 star general and a son of a 1st Sgt, don’t put the military too high on the pedestal (they’re just people too like you and I are). It’s great to respect your country, the men and women who serve and protect her, but the vUSAF dudes doing a salute tag in the bottom of teamspeak, definitely isn’t that over the top, nor disrespectful to the military. It’s just text and a virtual way to show respect to their friends who have shown dedication to their virtual AF. We don’t do that at our wing, but what I am saying is that you can go as deep as you’d like. Obviously they take the time to do so, they have strong membership and regular participation. They’re probably doing something right, that is fun and immersive for their membership and it’s really the only virtual military organization on VATSIM. They have to do UPT before they can even get to the IQT phase for the airframe they’ve signed up for. That’s pretty full up.
The main point was the more serious you take the things you do, the more cohesive of a group you can build and they have been around for a long time, with retired USAF pilots and crew-members alike and people who have never even been close to the military. And just because you do things full up doesn’t make it exclusive, in fact quite the contrary, I want to be as inclusive as I can, I literally bend over backwards to get pilots through our training, spend extra time to aid in mastering subjects, they don’t make it through because they psyche themselves out, that’s the real reason.
I don’t know why professional and getting your just deserts in a debrief = exclusive or too much. How are you ever going to get better if you go through every flight thinking you’re perfect? The answer is you wont and you’re not. You actually have to have the brass to say this wasn’t right, I am going to improve on this, and it wont be showing up in my future flying. You never learn from doing things well, once you think you’re doing it always right or you’re the best or this is “all I need” is when you stop learning. You learn 10x more when you make a mistake and then talk about it. Anybody who’s mastered this sim will tell you the same, hands down.
On the same token, when things are done well we glorify it, hence the simulation of medals, awards, ect. They more symbolize the work put into the wing, but still based on a lot of the same criteria in real life. It’s a way to mark participation and personal growth. Just because we are rocking ribbons on our “ARMS” page and badges doesn’t mean we think we are Colonels and Majors in real life. Same with your Falcon 4 logbook. It’s a virtual thing, to help immerse yourself in the process.