JanHas Models & Skin Thread -Compatible with 4.36
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Hello my friend Janhas
After careful analysis i have a few questions for the MLU Portuguese model ( and for all other models i believe)
1. Gear up/down timing and sequence is not correct (check video below from 2:45)
2. Nozzle % at MIL is ± 1/2 %, or to say almost fully closed yours is at ±50% at MIL
3. RPM at idle is a between 65% and 68%TO ALL DEVS: I recall in the past the nozzle position to be in the air like it its on the ground ( or to say modular) now i see its not and only with gear down the nozzle makes from 100% to 0% depending on the trust
Bug or i´m being completely dumb?Jan hope to see a V2 model for Portugal
nozzle bahavior is 100% conform with real for F16, depending on the engine type
no bug in that area.
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nozzle bahavior is 100% conform with real for F16, depending on the engine type
no bug in that area.
Depending if the aircraft.dat has not been altered and if engine is correctly set relative to airframe (MLU with GE for instance) Am I right?
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Depending if the aircraft.dat has not been altered and if engine is correctly set relative to airframe (MLU with GE for instance) Am I right?
i am talking STOCK BMS install,
the control of the third party FM file is not in my duty
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Mate that´s not possible. Not related to Jan either. BMS DB and LoD are not directly accessible trough BMS folders. And each and everyone of us have different DB files based on theaters, self made modifications, etc, etc.
Actually, that’s not true. We have another tool to manage the 3D Database, command line based. Way much easier :).
The creator gave his ok to make it public a long time ago. I’ll post about that tomorrow. Well, later today, we are already tomorrow here
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Surely it must be possible somehow to integrate updating the 3D database, e.g. applying third party mods, through F4Patch?
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i am talking STOCK BMS install,
the control of the third party FM file is not in my duty
Of course i will take your word Mav, but by any chance regarding the MLU stock .dat file theres is any minor improvement to be made? Just to be sure that im seeing worng all the videos of on board MLU vipers in the PoAF that i have.
This video in particular the nozzle position in flight in Mil its almost fully closed ( by guess i say 5/6% opened) and its correct in MIL. Many photos available in the web you can see some vipers in the air with the nozzle open more than that suggesting a variable nozzle opening operation during flight. All MLU vipers in BMS keep their nozzles from idle to MIL almost fully closed so… Am i wrong?
Jan have you notice the issues addressed in the previous post?
Fly safe
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Of course i will take your word Mav, but by any chance regarding the MLU stock .dat file theres is any minor improvement to be made? Just to be sure that im seeing worng all the videos of on board MLU vipers in the PoAF that i have.
This video in particular the nozzle position in flight in Mil its almost fully closed ( by guess i say 5/6% opened) and its correct in MIL. Many photos available in the web you can see some vipers in the air with the nozzle open more than that suggesting a variable nozzle opening operation during flight. All MLU vipers in BMS keep their nozzles from idle to MIL almost fully closed so… Am i wrong?
Jan have you notice the issues addressed in the previous post?
Fly safe
What block / engine are the POAF F16 ?
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it seems PoAF have PW engines
From T.O.1F-16 AM-1 PTC:
Convergent Exhaust Nozzle Control (CENC)
PW220"The CENC is actuated by a high-pressure bleed air
motor. The nozzle schedule is controlled by the DEEC
as a function of throttle input to the MFC.In PRI with
the LG handle down, the nozzle is approximately
70-95 percent open at IDLE (idle area reset). As the
throttle is advanced, the nozzle closes.With the LG handle up, the nozzle is near minimum area except
when approaching MIL or above.At MIL and above,
the DEEC schedules the nozzle to control engine
pressure ratio as a function of fan speed. When the
throttle is advanced in the AB range, the DEEC
commands the nozzle open to compensate for
increasing AB fuel flow. In SEC, the nozzle is
positioned to the closed position and AB operation is
inhibited."in game , for PW220 engines
Gear Down : Nozzle is opened at 94 % in Idle and 5% in MIL
Gear UP : Nozzle is fully closed at idle and on most the rpm range and opens 5 % in MIL
the 5% can be subject to debate , because no available reliable information was found on that numer , could be 10 ? , certainly not a big value anyway
In any case from idle to nearly MIL, nozzle is CLOSED.
This matches T.O.1F-16 AM-1 PTC
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for PW - 229
Gear UP : according to some sources : The nozzle is open to 0-20 percent in idle (different from PW220) , which value is not “absolute”. At the moment, it is 0% indeed. Could it be 5 , 10 or 15 ? maybe but no reliable numbers around there (this value at idle can not be changed in data file at the moment - hardcoded)
what is sure is that it is NOT fully opened at all at idle when Gear UP.
for GE engines, Gear UP sources were talking about nearly closed at idle (we chose 0% - hardcoded) and most the range and opened around 15% at MIL. We chose 13%
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post 700 in this discussion warn you about this very discrepancy gents
https://www.benchmarksims.org/forum/showthread.php?28821-JanHas-Models-amp-Skin-Thread&p=437925&viewfull=1#post437925TO ALL DEVS: I recall in the past the nozzle position to be in the air like it its on the ground ( or to say modular) now i see its not and only with gear down the nozzle makes from 100% to 0% depending on the trust
Bug or i´m being completely dumb? -
Also , be aware that all we are talking about are Gauge and GFX .
the real thrust generated in idle has been retro engineered from deceleration charts so takes the real into account anyway independantly from the GFX stuff
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Surely it must be possible somehow to integrate updating the 3D database, e.g. applying third party mods, through F4Patch?
Not F4Patch either. I’ll make our tool available when I get home.
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@f4.0:
Portuguese Air Force F-16(Mlu) has the 220.
Sorry then, I wrongly used the POAF acronym for Polish Air Force, instead of the correct POLAF.
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@Red:
post 700 in this discussion warn you about this very discrepancy gents
https://www.benchmarksims.org/forum/showthread.php?28821-JanHas-Models-amp-Skin-Thread&p=437925&viewfull=1#post437925Also , be aware that all we are talking about are Gauge and GFX .
The real thrust generated in idle has been retro engineered from deceleration charts so takes the real into account anyway independantly from the GFX stuff@Red Dog - For sure mate, there is something here in this model not 100% accurate but i trust in Jan and his ability to correct this issue for sure
@ Mav - Sir i arrest my case tank for the info on this subject. About the nozzle % since we do not have accurate information the 5% seems good but relying in a dial indicator from videos its not way for sure. I will try to collect some data on this one. -
Sorry then, I wrongly used the POAF acronym for Polish Air Force, instead of the correct POLAF.
Apologies accepted hehehe
Just messing with you Raptor
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Not a good idea to mess with a Raptor… hahahhaha
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More information i guess.
Mav?
The engine control system (ECS) comprises a primary (PRI) digital control and a secondary (SEC) hydromechanical control mode. PRI offers all the advantages of DEEC/IDEEC and runs the engine scheduling across the full range of throttle positions. SEC is a backup mode and will be discussed later on. Since the PW-229 is more powerful than the PW-220, IDEEC incorporates a ground idle thrust (GIT) setting to mimic the PW-220 performance when taxiing on the ground. IDEEC also incorporates a transient idle control logic that gives the pilot freedom to snap the throttles to idle whilst the engines maintain about 79% rpm. Thrust is reduced in accordance with requested throttle settings, but the engines maintain core rpm momentum for 20 seconds - after this they return to idle if no further throttle commands are given. This elongates engine life and improves subsequent throttle response times. The pilot has override authority on the operating mode of the ECS vie engine control switches, so the pilot can re-enter PRI mode and enter SEC mode if he desires so. This is achieved by the engine control switches: ON is for PRI mode, OFF is for SEC mode.
The DEEC schedules engine and afterburner fuel flows, compressor inlet variable vanes (CIVV), rear compressor variable vanes (RCVV), start bleed position, anti-ice and nozzle position. The DEEC controls engine performance by scheduling engine fuel flow to control airflow and nozzle position to control engine pressure ratio (EPR), this latter being a ratio between exhaust and inlet pressures. By controlling airflow and EPR, the engine performance remains consistent for a new or deteriorated engine until the FTIT limit is reached.
If a fault is detected by in the PRI mode software, then SEC mode is entered automatically. Note that SEC mode can be entered manually by placing the engine control switch to OFF position. SEC mode inhibits afterburner use and limits MIL power to 70-80% of its normal value. The CIVV are in a fully closed position, the nozzle is closed near to its minimum area (below 5%). In the meantime L or R ENG CONTR caution is displayed. RCVV, start bleeds and engine fuel flow are scheduled by the MFC. The engine remains in SEC mode until the fault is cleared or the engine control switch is put back to ON position.
Note that engine start can be accomplished with the engine control switches in either ON or OFF position, but after engine start they should be left in their position for at least 1 minute, otherwise DEEC will switch to SEC mode. If the engine is started with its engine control switch in OFF position then SEC mode will be entered immediately of course - this way ground starting time will be longer.
The F100-PW-220/229 incorporates a built-in engine monitoring system (EMS) which consists of DEEC/IDEEC software and the EDU (Engine Diagnostics Unit). This continuously monitors engine parameters and system states to detect engine operating failures. Engine operation failures (along with engine and aircraft data) are detected and logged in memory for further analysis by maintenance personnel. The EDU also maintains engine life-cycle information.
he exhaust nozzles (12) are axially symmetrical and they follow a convergent-divergent profile. They give a wide range both in area and in profile. The nozzles can be moved pneumatically by utilizing engine bleed air. The nozzles themselves are moved by titanium rods (11) driven by actuators (9). On the ground (when WOW is sensed) and the engine is in IDLE, the nozzles are 80% open with PW-220 engines and 90-100% open with PW-229 engines (provided that DEEC/IDEEC is on). As the throttles advance toward MIL, the nozzles are moving to their fully closed position.
During flight the nozzles are at their minimum area at all times, except at MIL power or on afterburner. At MIL nozzles are 5-10% open with PW-220 engines and 6-20% open with PW-229 engines. The nozzles reach their fully open state only in full afterburner to compensate for increasing afterburner fuel flow. -
The data for nozzle position in the fm file is a bit of mystery to me. How they all work together? I’m sure I can figure it out with a lot of trial and error. I’m not a big data editor and I prefer to spend my time on other models. If someone finds better values that can make it look/work better I’m sure I will add the new values to the fm’s.