HTS with other munitions
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Good Day, All,
What is the best procedure to use HAD to target with another weapon, JSOW for example? I’m understanding how to, with HAD as SOI, get to PGM 1, getting the weapon steerpoint, and all that. But when I go to make the radar the SOI, thinking I can do the old “thing over the thing”, the weapon steer point disappears off the HUD. I’m obviously missing a step somewhere, but can’t find it in the Dash-34. -
Check this out, it may help, it is not in the -34 because I didn’t feel it was a realistic procedure. In BMS, AWACS/JSTAR positions are given in bullseye, so you should get used to using them.
While using bullseye notations may not be as precise as a lat/lon or an L16 transmission, I believe it should work well enough to use a mini-nuke like the JSOW. Once registered in the MMC, you can use the FCR expanded mode or the TGP to refine it, if you want to use precision standoff weapons like an SDB or JASSM.
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Are you carrying HARMs? Fly the FPM on the TD box (requires you to fly in a straight line towards the SAM), then create a markpoint. Works pretty well.
If not, you can only try to find it with the radar. You see the range lines in HAD and also range lines in GM. Try to match range and direction, then match bullseye position, then try to find the battery with help of the TGP.
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Are you carrying HARMs? Fly the FPM on the TD box (requires you to fly in a straight line towards the SAM), then create a markpoint. Works pretty well.
If not, you can only try to find it with the radar. You see the range lines in HAD and also range lines in GM. Try to match range and direction, then match bullseye position, then try to find the battery with help of the TGP.
Hi, Sungad,
No, generally I don’t carry HARM, and thanks for the tips. I was under the mistaken impression that since the 4.35 HTS creates a steerpoint( that assumption based on the manual saying the HARM is essentially launching in POS) , that steerpoint would be “seen” by the FCR/TGP.
I wonder if marking a Mark point off the HUD would work. I’ll be experimenting today.
Dash-1, p71
"If master mode is NAV or A-G mode and the FCR or TGP
are not SOI & designating or ground stabilised entering the
MARK page will default to HUD MARK. A markpoint must
be created manually by moving the HUD mark cue (HMC
– a small slewable circle appearing near the FPM in predesignate) with the cursor (HUD SOI) and moving TMS
up. The first press of TMS up will ground stabilise the
HMC and the second TMS up will save the markpoint.
HMC must be on the ground for correct implementation,
pointing at the sky will not work obviously. "
and
"The MARK page is used to create markpoints. Ownship markpoints are stored in steerpoints 26-30. " -
Since there is no HUD indication of the HTS cursor, I doubt you will have a successful test.
Let me know if you come up with a better solution.
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Since there is no HUD indication of the HTS cursor, I doubt you will have a successful test.
Let me know if you come up with a better solution.
Hi, Zipgun,
I did a quickee experiment , using the HARM TE. When you get to PGM 1(or perhaps 2 per the Dash-34)and lock it, a steerpoint diamond does appear on the HUD . You have to remember where that is visually( I lined mine up with my pitch scale , but whatever), because when you press the MARK button (7) the steerpoint symbol disappears from the HUD. You have to press UFC 7 a couple of times until your get the HUD selection , slew the circle to the area, and TMS up twice. That creates a steerpoint, in the 26-30 range.
If you then go into UFC 4, and select that steerpoint, it becomes the SPI. As I didn’t have ordinance except HARM, I couldn’t complete the attack. More later… -
I should think you’d want to do this from HAS mode - pull up HAS, select a target, drop a Mark on that target.
The you have to make that Mark point your current STPT…which I would think would happen automatically, but I could be mixing platforms. But you have to do that, or your other weapon isn’t going to target your Mark.
Given that you have to get something radiating at you to even get a HARM or the HTS to see it, personally, I would just fire a HARM at it…and if you don’t have a HARM it’s probably going to lob a SAM at you once you get near enough. Launching a JSOW (or anything but a SLAM or SLAM-ER where you can see/tell the weapon to adjust it’s end game) at it probably isn’t going to work either because you aren’t going to get any target elevation information from the HTS or HARM…so you might get a near miss, but I’d still expect a miss.
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Hi, Zipgun,
I did a quickee experiment , using the HARM TE. When you get to PGM 1(or perhaps 2 per the Dash-34)and lock it, a steerpoint diamond does appear on the HUD . You have to remember where that is visually( I lined mine up with my pitch scale , but whatever), because when you press the MARK button (7) the steerpoint symbol disappears from the HUD. You have to press UFC 7 a couple of times until your get the HUD selection , slew the circle to the area, and TMS up twice. That creates a steerpoint, in the 26-30 range.
If you then go into UFC 4, and select that steerpoint, it becomes the SPI. As I didn’t have ordinance except HARM, I couldn’t complete the attack. More later…Hmm, given the induced error of a visual transfer and the HUD markpoint limited range, I would be careful getting that close to the Pat Hand in the HARM TE - you may get bit.
I tend to favor tactics that can be used all-weather and on night missions from as far from a SAM’s missile I can get. The words of my first flight instructor are playing in my head: “There are old pilots and bold pilots, but there aren’t many old bold pilots”.
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Right on, Zipgun!
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Hmm, given the induced error of a visual transfer and the HUD markpoint limited range, I would be careful getting that close to the Pat Hand in the HARM TE - you may get bit.
I tend to favor tactics that can be used all-weather and on night missions from as far from a SAM’s missile I can get. The words of my first flight instructor are playing in my head: “There are old pilots and bold pilots, but there aren’t many old bold pilots”.
Hi,Zipgun,
I agree completely. However, in this case I was 40plus miles away when I “did the drill”, and probably could have done it from farther away( I was after all just experimenting). For example, upon first lock I could have turned to beam it, keeping my distance. Also, please note I was just marking a spot on the ground I couldn’t actually see the ground at that distance (even with TGP). So, I would think with practice it be done at night( might even be easier with ground lights to cue on) and all-weather. Also, please keep in mind I would be using this with the “shotgun effect” of JSOW
Meanwhile, we all know that RL HTS can be used to target for PGM’s. At least newer versions. How to do so in BMS is the question.
I made this post to get other opinions, so if you have a better way Id love to hear it.
Stevie, you’re right, it does become the steerpoint once you input that 26-30 steerpoint. And, I had shot off the HARM’s to test the concept, so I didn’t have HAS -
…I guess the HTS could possibly produce/use angle rates to provide a full target point solution…but my gut tells me it would do a really poor job of that. I mean, REALLY poor…
…and 40NM is awful close. Shudder.
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Fly the FPM on the TD box. Then press MARK, followed very quickly by TMS up.
The markpoint is now ground stabilized. Press TMS up again to actually create the markpoint and then M-SEL to make the new markpoint your active steerpoint.If you do it right, you can get very close to the emitter (within TGP FOV).
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That’s better…
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Fly the FPM on the TD box. Then press MARK, followed very quickly by TMS up.
The markpoint is now ground stabilized. Press TMS up again to actually create the markpoint and then M-SEL to make the new markpoint your active steerpoint.If you do it right, you can get very close to the emitter (within TGP FOV).
H, Sungad, and thx. That is a better then what I was doing. However, it seems Zapgun was right yesterday when he wrote about the lack of a HUD marker. When I experimented last night with no HARM I got the whole PGM 1,lock, etc. on the HAD page, but no HUD marker. I had to do what he suggested, use Bull data and range markers from the HAD page.
So, what you’re writing here is perfect IF you carry a HARM, and frankly I was trying to avoid off loading something else to do so.
Thinking about this, I wonder if the RL Viper/HTS makes this work by giving a MARK option for the HAD page.Then, M-SEL and away we go. This option is not in the Dash-34 ,but I am going to try it in’pit today: make HAD the SOI, hit MARK, and see what happens. I’ll try it with HARM on board and after it’s fired, so I can compare. As my wife likes to say, “questions are free”, and of course any flight time is good flight time, right? ;). -
H, Sungad, and thx. That is a better then what I was doing. However, it seems Zapgun was right yesterday when he wrote about the lack of a HUD marker. When I experimented last night with no HARM I got the whole PGM 1,lock, etc. on the HAD page, but no HUD marker. I had to do what he suggested, use Bull data and range markers from the HAD page.
So, what you’re writing here is perfect IF you carry a HARM, and frankly I was trying to avoid off loading something else to do so.
Thinking about this, I wonder if the RL Viper/HTS makes this work by giving a MARK option for the HAD page.Then, M-SEL and away we go. This option is not in the Dash-34 ,but I am going to try it in’pit today: make HAD the SOI, hit MARK, and see what happens. I’ll try it with HARM on board and after it’s fired, so I can compare. As my wife likes to say, “questions are free”, and of course any flight time is good flight time, right? ;).There is no way to make a HAD markpoint. I tried. It’s a bit difficult without HARMs.
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This is why having the option to make a mark point via the HMCS would be useful, place the mark point from where the missile launches. During day at least. And then refine with the TGP.
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This is why having the option to make a mark point via the HMCS would be useful, place the mark point from where the missile launches. During day at least. And then refine with the TGP.
I love that idea!
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No pinpoint with HTS. HTS is not made for this. It is “only” made to get a (more or less precises) distance to an emitter. Not to allow BOC.
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No pinpoint with HTS. HTS is not made for this. It is “only” made to get a (more or less precises) distance to an emitter. Not to allow BOC.
I don’t really need pinpoint, I only need it within TGP FOV.
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No pinpoint with HTS. HTS is not made for this. It is “only” made to get a (more or less precises) distance to an emitter. Not to allow BOC.
Ok, Dee-Jay, thx for the input, and please feel free to correct a possible misconception on my part. Is it not true that RL HTS ( at least current versions) can be used for at least indirect targeting of PGM’s? If so, is what we have in BMS true to modern life? Or, is our model based on 1990’s HTS tech that was not that precise? I don’t ask that to be critical. Some things we just can’t do (AESA leaps to mind), and I have_absolutely_ no problem with that.
If you have HARM, procedures are clear. If they shoot at you, same (thx, Canuck) . But, the purpose of this thread is simple. What is the best way in BMS to use HTS to help PGM( or dumb bomb, for that matter) targeting when HARM is NOT carried, it’s a pop up threat with no preassigned steerpoint, and it’s not shooting but is emitting? As Sungad implied, how we get “in the ballpark”?
While we’re here , I have another question. I’m in early Day 2 of the Korea Russian landing campaign. I had a mission last night against SA-6’s. I actually got close enough for a clear view of the launchers, and SAM’s were on the rails. They did not shoot or even emit, and I was in their WEZ. I was also almost overflying SA-10s ( and that was an interesting realization)and all I got were search radars. I have seen other campaigns (4.33 BfB comes to mind) where the SAM’s "just kept aflyin’ " Could it be the difficulty level of the campaign? I’m just using whatever this campaign defaulted to. More to the point, what, if anything, can I do to make Sam’s more active, given the 4.35 SAM AI improvements?
Sidenote : Thanks to you all for the 500 thanks!