Training features request
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Hello to everyone!
Flying all these years (from 2012 till today) mostly training missions I wonder if some features are easy to be implemented mostly for training purposes.
The most important feature for me that I would like to be included in a future update is the ability to add fuel while flying with a keystroke command, something like a reverse fuel dump. I know that this is unrealistic and may cause problems during PvP events and that’s why it’s a good idea to be added as multiplayer criteria in the configuration.
The reason for that is that I want to simulate follow-on aircrafts without exiting the 3d world. For example, in case a DCA formation is down it can go to a regeneration area, add some fuel and be back as a new formation. With CATM missiles weapon configuration is not a problem at least for Air To Air weapons.
The option of air refuelling demands a lot of time and skills and the unlimited fuel option is not realistic as fuel management is a critical task by itself.Another thing is the option to reload the aircraft with live, mostly air-to-ground, weapons while airborne or on the ground (engine on or off), something like hot pit refuel but with weapons.
This will simulate combat turnarounds if we are talking about ground reloading.
Reloading while airborne can train some people when they fly training sorties with a specific weapon or mission type generally. I know that exiting the 3d world does not demand anymore to exit Falcon completely but rentering several times in 3d may cause problems and furthermore you must create a more complicated tac file with several spare aircrafts.I have no idea if any of these features are able or easy to be added. Also, I don’t know if they can be in priority in order to be developed by the respective people considering other tasks and time of course BUT I believe that these options are giving a more professional style to the simulator regarding training capabilities and they are worthy to be developed some day.
Also I am not sure if this the right section of the forum to post this! LOL
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Not sure I get it and to be honest, you’re driving very close to DCS…
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I am not sure what do you mean by driving to dcs. I don’t even have dcs in my pc.
The first thing that i am talking about is the ability to add fuel while airborne. Example: you are frying and you have 4500 lbs and when you press CTRL D let’s say, you have 5000lbs. This is very useful for training fights if you want to simulate regeneration procedures
The second thing is the ability to reload the aircraft on ground or airborne.
These may seem arcade features to your eyes but people who want to be trained or train effectively can take advantage.
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@Ironman3 said in Training features request:
I am not sure what do you mean by driving to dcs. I don’t even have dcs in my pc.
The first thing that i am talking about is the ability to add fuel while airborne. Example: you are frying and you have 4500 lbs and when you press CTRL D let’s say, you have 5000lbs. This is very useful for training fights if you want to simulate regeneration procedures
The second thing is the ability to reload the aircraft on ground or airborne.
These may seem arcade features to your eyes but people who want to be trained or train effectively can take advantage.
For training, just enable unlimited fuel and unlimited weapons - if you must.
But saying that, I must recommend “train like you fight”
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@Ironman3 said in Training features request:
I am not sure what do you mean by driving to dcs. I don’t even have dcs in my pc.
The first thing that i am talking about is the ability to add fuel while airborne. Example: you are frying and you have 4500 lbs and when you press CTRL D let’s say, you have 5000lbs. This is very useful for training fights if you want to simulate regeneration procedures
The second thing is the ability to reload the aircraft on ground or airborne.
These may seem arcade features to your eyes but people who want to be trained or train effectively can take advantage.
Welcome @Ironman3 . These are not new requests (especially the rearm one) but are likely not going to happen. For the refuel, your option is to set unlimited fuel, have a tanker in the air, or land and hot-refuel. For rearm, your only option is unlimited ammo. Would I love to be able to land and rearm along with a hot-refuel? Absolutely. It has been explained this would require a massive undertaking in the code, it’s just not on their list…
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I pointed out the reasons that i want especially the refuel feature.
Instant refuel can be a very useful tool for our way of frying in our squadron.
And if somebody things it’s unrealistic don’t use it.
Of course if it’s difficult or out of schedule i completely understand!
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Gents,
This is absolutely out of question from my perspective to push such a thing in BMS.
There is nothing realistic about your request… (re-arm and refuel takes time in real life and it is definitely not like DCS does…)
For the time being, use cheats as proposed but I don’t see value for BMS to undertake such a work to reduce realism…
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In my opinion realism has to do with the way you fly and you deal with the sim generally.
There is nothing wrong about adding those kind of options as long as the sim can provide the appropriate realism. Thinking that way, unlimited fuel, invulnerability and other have to be removed.
Realism is a big chapter that everybody reads it differently.
If everyone has ever visited a real simulator he can understand what i mean.
So from my side is pretty clear that there is no time and purpose to develop those features. No problem and i completely understand that. As always we will keep finding ways to serve our needs.
Thank you all for replying!!!
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I’m just curious about the disconnect here and I wonder if you see it.
You want to be able to add fuel while in flight but air refuelling like real pilots do demands a lot of time and skill (but it’s a training mission? like those things you spend time on to develop your skill?) and unlimited fuel is not realistic… but magically adding a few thousand pounds of fuel is?
You want to hand-wave away fuel management but you still realise that fuel management is a critical task. So why ask for a magic-refuel option? You have a mission to do, you have 4,000lbs of fuel, go train fuel management and accomplish your mission! Seems like there’s no need for a magic-refuel option!
As for re-arming the jet, not sure if they do that in real life unless in extreme circumstances and even so, I would wager it takes a good amount of time, maybe 30 minutes at the quickest and this is after you’ve parked your aircraft. Taxi to/from the hotpit re-arm area not included.
If you just want to keep circling the KOTAR range dropping bombs and refining your technique, then unlimited ammo is there for that. Pair that with unlimited fuel and you can spend as long as you want over the range.
@Ironman3 said in Training features request:
These may seem arcade features to your eyes but people who want to be trained or train effectively can take advantage.
While I fully agree that some arcade features can help with training, I would think that proper training would be to go out, do a couple of passes, then exit the sim and watch the ACMI and debrief, learn from it, then use that learning to structure the next exercise. In that scenario, unlimited fuel and ammo is not necessary.
I am curious how you guys are running your training.
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@Ironman3 said in Training features request:
In my opinion realism has to do with the way you fly and you deal with the sim generally.
I think you are right
For your consideration…
I’m curious why there’s such an aversion to exiting 3D and re-entering in a new flight.
This surely is a better way to provide the kind of realistic training regimen that you are alluding to in the original post. Just make a TE that has the follow on flights in the frag and then if you want the same pilots flying in all those extra seats, make sure they join the game as clients and just hop in and out of the appropriate flights at the right moments to extract the training value that you are after. In all cases, doing that will put your trainees in a jet with more realistic limits in terms of fuel and loadout not to mention avoiding the artificial trip to the “penalty box” to reset. I would imagine that the hop out and back into 3d is considerably faster than the transit time to and from an airborne regeneration zone.
The scenario with jets resetting in a staging area might be “realistic” given limited airframes for real life exercises/training and of course the inability to hot swap seats while the jets are in the air. The sim world we have doesn’t have those restrictions so why not take advantage of that and use the frag to deliver a more realistic training context for pilots than the real air forces can?? Heck the frag can let you pick different jets and loadouts for different mission roles for those follow on flights; better than simply replenishing the jet you have with the same fuel and loadout which might well be role-inappropriate.
I know that for a long time the development team has advised that you should not visit 3D world multiple times in a single game but those days are - we hope - long gone now. There’s been a lot of time and attention lavished on making multiple trips to 3D be both possible and stable.
And of course the other upside in this case is that no new code work is required to deliver that experience to you
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Guys i don’t expect to understand the way we fly. In order to realize what we do just wait for the next Iniohos exercise the following October hosted by e-haf and apply for a slot.
Each mission targets to train certain things. When we are frying big scale events for example and a member forgets his speedbrakes let’s say I want to be able to fix that mistake instantly rather sending him back. The reason for that is that I don’t want to mess a well organized exercises for a member’s mistake. During the debriefing we can analyze what went wrong but there are other people that want to see specific things during such kind of events which are rare.
Reentering 3d with a different aircraft can affect datalink and fuel remaining on the new aircraft which the AI was flying with.
And you would say do you trust your mate he won’t use the cool and instant refuel by himself? The answer is yes as we fly together for 10 years now.
Bms offers cool features and is by far the most worthy simulator to deal with. But have you ever tried to simulate a human jtac with ground lasing capability or csar missions with human airman on the ground, or slow mover protection with a human in the slow mover? We do such “cheats” and believe me the results are very realistic. Those are not difficult to come up with and execute them but we sacrifice a member each time to provide ultimate experience to the others.
I am not going to try anymore to explain why we may need those features because will take many posts. Just try to participate in our next exercise and you will find out that BMS can be handled with many interesting ways.
And i completely understand that the dev team is not going to develope something for a small group of people.
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This discussion reminds me of a similar discussion we were having many years back when I was serving on the Greek army. Someone said that it would be great if the Swiss army knife that he had ,could also be equipped with a small flashlight. We all had flashlights but they were big and bulky at the time. So many agreed with his new feature request and many disagreed with it (“you have to carry extra batteries”,“it would not be strong enough to see anything”,“it would make the Swiss army knife to big”, “why do you need that there are lights everywhere” etc) and some offering alternatives that have already been considered by the OP but we rejected. The request here and back then is about more options. And more options are always welcomed by a community of people that have 100.000 different configurations and training procedures and sop’s. Good day to all!
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@MaxWaldorf said in Training features request:
Gents,
This is absolutely out of question from my perspective to push such a thing in BMS.
There is nothing realistic about your request… (re-arm and refuel takes time in real life and it is definitely not like DCS does…)
For the time being, use cheats as proposed but I don’t see value for BMS to undertake such a work to reduce realism…
100% agree. OP needs to learn to use the game properly not with arcade cheat keys. Dumb idea.
OP try training in correct order. Start with basics, take off, flying, landing then move onto weapons and combat tactics.
Learn to fly proper combat missions, not exactly sure what you are doing but it sounds dumb and totally unrealistic. -
@Hubert3000 said in Training features request:
OP needs to learn to use the game properly not with arcade cheat keys. Dumb idea.
OP try training in correct order. Start with basics, take off, flying, landingWhen you read the OP posts, that’s what you took away? I took that he’s been flying BMS for 10 years and now leads a virtual training squadron.
I get that these sorts of feature requests don’t align with the current tenets and priorities of the BMS team. But it’s not unreasonable to ask, right?
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@Ironman3 said in Training features request:
a member forgets his speedbrakes let’s say I want to be able to fix that mistake instantly
Isn’t there a way to invoke the scripting commands (eg. SetFuel) in the 3d pit … in the chat window?
I thought there was a way, but perhaps I’m mistaken.
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@airtex2019 you can actually but there might be limitations on when you trigger it…
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@Hubert3000 said in Training features request:
@MaxWaldorf said in Training features request:
Gents,
This is absolutely out of question from my perspective to push such a thing in BMS.
There is nothing realistic about your request… (re-arm and refuel takes time in real life and it is definitely not like DCS does…)
For the time being, use cheats as proposed but I don’t see value for BMS to undertake such a work to reduce realism…
100% agree. OP needs to learn to use the game properly not with arcade cheat keys. Dumb idea.
OP try training in correct order. Start with basics, take off, flying, landing then move onto weapons and combat tactics.
Learn to fly proper combat missions, not exactly sure what you are doing but it sounds dumb and totally unrealistic.I think maybe you need to tone it down a notch and re-read his 1st (and subsequent) posts more carefully. He is looking for “features” that will fit into his training program and certainly are not “dumb” requests. Many (myself included) have asked about a “hot rearm” availability for years, back before BMS actually. He has graciously accepted that these are not likely items that will ever be addressed, but never say never about the BMS team!
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Let’s end it here.
No worries about not adding those features!
Everything is .
You are all welcomed to our exercise in a few months with your best realistic way of flying, you will need it for sure.
Be well!!!
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@airtex2019 said in Training features request:
@Hubert3000 said in Training features request:
OP needs to learn to use the game properly not with arcade cheat keys. Dumb idea.
OP try training in correct order. Start with basics, take off, flying, landingWhen you read the OP posts, that’s what you took away? I took that he’s been flying BMS for 10 years and now leads a virtual training squadron.
I get that these sorts of feature requests don’t align with the current tenets and priorities of the BMS team. But it’s not unreasonable to ask, right?
Sounds like the ‘training’ is bad and needs some work. I would look at that first.
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@Hubert3000 you really don’t know what you are talking about…