Training features request
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It seems you see BMS as game mostly.
I want to be able to use it as a simulator too!
That fact that a trainer may want to put fuel in the aircraft is to continue the exercise in order to see if the student is ok with this part regardless if the student failed due to bad fuel management.
But realy tell me… Is so bad to add a feature that a REAL SIMULATOR HAS?
Are the constructors of the real simulators dump to add those kind of options? Can you question them?
I think not. But guys I understand that most people here see BMS as a game and the only thing that matter for them is to take medals during campaign. Personally I never fly vs AI with very few exceptions
I can’t explain to you the way we use BMS and the only way to see it is to participate in our exercise or just enter our discord server (i can send it if you want) and observe some flights.
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Absolutely agreed!!!
I stated that I comoletely understand that priorities are different because BMS is a game to have fun.
The only thing that pushed me to asked is that it seems easy to add this option.
The discussion now is to explain why i eant that thing!
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@Ironman3 said in Training features request:
It seems you see BMS as game mostly.
I want to be able to use it as a simulator too!
I understand that most people here see BMS as a game and the only thing that matter for them is to take medals during campaign.On the contrary, I’m here because BMS is a simulator… unlike other offerings. Please do not make assumptions. I have zero regard for my in-game pilot rankings or medals, but have more regard for my own set of skills and way of thinking.
@Ironman3 said in Training features request:
That fact that a trainer may want to put fuel in the aircraft is to continue the exercise in order to see if the student is ok with this part regardless if the student failed due to bad fuel management.
Of course, I agree with you there. But go and re-read my earlier posts. The disconnect here is that you want to be able to magically add fuel but you also realise the importance of fuel management. If fuel management is important, then why add fuel? If fuel management is NOT important, then why not just use the unlimited fuel option? “Join our exercise” is not an answer to those questions and if you can answer the questions on your Discord server, why can’t you answer the questions here?
@Ironman3 said in Training features request:
But realy tell me… Is so bad to add a feature that a REAL SIMULATOR HAS?
No, I’m not saying that. What I’m saying is why can’t you use the options already available – unlimited fuel and unlimited ammo? How are you conducting your flights or training that these options do not fulfil your requirements?
But at this point, I’ve asked numerous times already and I guess you’re never going to answer so I guess we’ll just leave it at that. I’d just want to say again that it’s nothing against you or how you or your group fly and enjoy the game, I was just curious about your seemingly unique requirements and wanted to know more.
All the best and good luck! At the end of the day, if we exit BMS with big smiles on our faces, who cares what cheats or non-cheats we’ve used?
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@Ironman3 said in Training features request:
The reason for that is that I want to simulate follow-on aircrafts without exiting the 3d world. For example, in case a DCA formation is down it can go to a regeneration area, add some fuel and be back as a new formation. With CATM missiles weapon configuration is not a problem at least for Air To Air weapons.
The option of air refuelling demands a lot of time and skills and the unlimited fuel option is not realistic as fuel management is a critical task by itself.This is the reason and I posted it on my very first post.
So let’s close it here. I am sure that some people got what I want to say.
As said in previous posts we will always find ways to serve our needs and in the end exit with big smiles. -
Is there an option for unlimited ammo? Couldn’t find it
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@jayb said in Training features request:
Is there an option for unlimited ammo? Couldn’t find it
Instant Action…
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Yeah, so there is no unlimited ammo option for training TEs, only unlimited fuel.
Thx,
JayB -
@Atlas said in Training features request:
Of course, I agree with you there. But go and re-read my earlier posts. The disconnect here is that you want to be able to magically add fuel but you also realise the importance of fuel management. If fuel management is important, then why add fuel? If fuel management is NOT important, then why not just use the unlimited fuel option? “Join our exercise” is not an answer to those questions and if you can answer the questions on your Discord server, why can’t you answer the questions here?
Let’s take the following cases into account:
CASE 1
COMAO vs DCA (16 human)
COMAO
4 x OCA
2 x SEAD
2 x SEAD/ESCORT
4 x STRIKECAP
4 x CAP-
WHY WE CANNOT USE UNLIMITED FUEL?:* Simply because the VUL & TOT times will have absolutely no meaning.
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in favour of the realism because in our area the propability of AAR is remote, but, the possibility of QRAs from READINESS aircraft is very probable. That for, we thought that the only way to simulate the QRAs (with human) is if the first 2 DEAD DCA (INVUL. ON) players can go back to a “REGEN AREA” approx. 30 miles out and recommit at a specific time. (for these 2 players we have these 46 posts.)
CASE 2
Advanced Training School
4-Ship Flight
The syllabus for the flight is as follows:
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Tactical Departure / VFR
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Join up in OFFSET BOX
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G-Warm UP/ WSC
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Tactical Turns
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3 sets of of perch setups per element
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2 setups tactical intercepts
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RTB/ IFR
It generally takes me some time to prepare briefing, TAC, and also to find a common day with the other three members of the flight.
I would rather use the so called “cheat” If for any reason one of the flight members drinks more fuel that the rest and finish the exercise instead of getting the formation back to ground. (ofcourse the drinker would have to bring the beers for the debrief)
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@kodi @Ironman3 I think you guys probably already know this trick, but for anyone who doesn’t…
set g_bBrakeOnHud 1
Will add a little 1-10 indicator for speedbrake at the lower-left corner of HUD.
A small sacrifice of realism/fidelity for basic quality of life… but tbh it sounds like the real viper cockpit could use a more visible indicator.
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@kodi said in Training features request:
- WHY WE CANNOT USE UNLIMITED FUEL?:* Simply because the VUL & TOT times will have absolutely no meaning.
But a magical injection of fuel out of nowhere is… better?
If you are planning a mission where you cannot meet VUL or TOT times because you hit a fuel limit, then there is something wrong with the mission. Top up fuel from a tanker, carry more bags, fly more economically, take off from a closer airbase, etc etc if the idea is realism. If not, then go burner to the fence in point, go burner wherever you go, and just add more fuel as necessary. If your VUL and TOT is rendered meaningless by unlimited fuel, it is also rendered meaningless the moment you add fuel out of thin air, isn’t it?
@kodi said in Training features request:
- in favour of the realism because in our area the propability of AAR is remote,
So if you cannot hit a tanker, magically getting fuel back in the tanks is realism?? Don’t get me wrong here, do whatever you want, fly out of Japan to hit Pyongyang on a fully armed jet with no bags, get unlimited fuel as long as you have fun, but then to say that adding fuel is “in favour of realism”, I’m not exactly sure where you’re coming from.
@kodi said in Training features request:
It generally takes me some time to prepare briefing, TAC, and also to find a common day with the other three members of the flight.
I would rather use the so called “cheat” If for any reason one of the flight members drinks more fuel that the rest and finish the exercise instead of getting the formation back to ground. (ofcourse the drinker would have to bring the beers for the debrief)
So why not just use unlimited fuel for that person that struggles with fuel management? Why is someone flying an Advanced Training School syllabus when he/she can’t do proper fuel management or hit a tanker to top up?
Or, in my opinion, the better option is to make that person come to terms with the gap in his skill set and either get better at fuel management (if the rest of the flight can do it, then the mission is possible) or hit a tanker to top up before the flight goes and fences in or fly the attack portion a bit more conservatively and then tank up on the way back, etc etc. All are realistic and results in a better pilot. Maybe the flight may lose a session or two as the new guy catches up to everyone in terms of skill, but at the end of the day, they get a better wingman.
Thanks for taking the time to explain though!
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@airtex2019 said in Training features request:
but tbh it sounds like the real viper cockpit could use a more visible indicator.
If you have half a second to spare and can afford to go heads down, the speedbrake indicator would tell you. If not, then feel for the position of the speedbrake switch.
Not sure how often real pilots check their fuel states though but I presume if there was an issue of higher fuel burn due to a partially open speedbrake, it would be caught and dealt with prior to fencing in. I would also think this is why alternate airbases are identified for issues such as these?
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@airtex2019 Thank you. I did not know about this HUD setting for the air brake. Its perfect, just what I have been looking for.
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@Atlas said in Training features request:
But a magical injection of fuel out of nowhere is… better?
If you are planning a mission where you cannot meet VUL or TOT times because you hit a fuel limit, then there is something wrong with the mission. Top up fuel from a tanker, carry more bags, fly more economically, take off from a closer airbase, etc etc if the idea is realism. If not, then go burner to the fence in point, go burner wherever you go, and just add more fuel as necessary. If your VUL and TOT is rendered meaningless by unlimited fuel, it is also rendered meaningless the moment you add fuel out of thin air, isn’t it?
So if you cannot hit a tanker, magically getting fuel back in the tanks is realism?? Don’t get me wrong here, do whatever you want, fly out of Japan to hit Pyongyang on a fully armed jet with no bags, get unlimited fuel as long as you have fun, but then to say that adding fuel is “in favour of realism”, I’m not exactly sure where you’re coming from.
Atlas in my wild guess I believe you 've approached this post with denial and tunnel vision since the begining.
Otherwise you would have undestood that the 2 bullet points in my post for case 1 are complimenting each other.I wrote that with unlimited fuel the VUL& TOT have no meanining, I am pretty sure the reason is clear and has definitelly nothing to do with mission planning.
Earlier I mentioned to you that for case 1 this function is to “enable/simulate” QRA (Scramble) aircraft without having the players either to wait in a cold plane on the ground for 30-45’, or, exiting the 3d to get the QRA jets.
Since you are always talking about the tanker, I am sure that you are certainly aware of the distance behind FEBA that the HVA would turn and hence the AAR would usually take place , so no, the SCRAMBLED aircraft cannot be simulated by going 160nm(at least) back and forth.
FYI, we operate in EMF theater under HELLAS. We do have many “aircraft carriers(islands)” spread around so that’s where the e-QRA are coming from.
So why not just use unlimited fuel for that person that struggles with fuel management? Why is someone flying an Advanced Training School syllabus when he/she can’t do proper fuel management or hit a tanker to top up?
So in your opinion, a person from trainee pilot to a wing commander is not allowed to make an error?
This link has a list of accidents happened in RL by RL pilots where they were mostly trained beyond AdT ,and yet, they made the error.
Not all the Air Forces have owned tankers, it doesn’t mean that in a PvP mission we won’t be using the tanker as a NATO e-country as depicted by the SPINS/ATO ,but, in day to day business that’s not the case.
Or, in my opinion, the better option is to make that person come to terms with the gap in his skill set and either get better at fuel management (if the rest of the flight can do it, then the mission is possible) or hit a tanker to top up before the flight goes and fences in or fly the attack portion a bit more conservatively and then tank up on the way back, etc etc. All are realistic and results in a better pilot. Maybe the flight may lose a session or two as the new guy catches up to everyone in terms of skill, but at the end of the day, they get a better wingman.
You made all you arguments based on the AAR, I am confident that once you understand why we don’t want to use the tanker it will be easier to grasp the reason why Ironman asked for this “cheat”.
Having the option to refill the aircraft “magically” midair at a preset value of 4-5K lbs, in case of somebody’s error, will allow my flight objectives to be completed rather than postponed for a next flight.
Unlimited fuel adds many constraints in BEM exrcises.
Mate, I’m afraid that I cannot make it simpler for you.
Let’s agree to disagree. -
Guys let’s end it for real now and I mean it now.
Conclusions:
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No way to develop such thing as DEV TEAM considers that this is out of the character of the game!
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There are different ways of using FALCON and this is acceptable. Unfortunately sometimes we can’t understand this different way of thinking.
Personally I wish someday Falcon can potentially be a training platform too. War simulation is good but such a software with so many realistic systems it’s really petty not to give the chance to trainees and trainers to simulate real life.
Period!
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I really don’t understand how a simple request results in how he trains a squadron.
You think after 10 years that he don’t knows about unlimited fuel and unlimited weapons or flights in the frag?
Why don’t you think out of a box and try to understant or ask him the reason for these requests?
Let me give you a example:
When I train a pilot I try to see and show him not one object but the whole phase of the flight:- T/O
- Join up in formation
- Navigation in time
- let say : pop up attacks
- rejoin
- landing
In the above example the main purpose of the training flight is the (4)
Now let’s say that the trainee do bad fuel managment and fuels do not reach him for 3 passes in the target and for LAND.
We will miss the main purpose of the flight.
Or for reload: 3 not good pass and we want one more for better results
So: If i use unlimited fuel i think that the trainee will not managment fuels, from the other case i can give him a second chance.
If i use unlimited weapons and the trainee is doing well, the weight of the aircraft will not change and on the landing it will be heavy.
Again i say it is a training flight and the main purpose is the pop up attacks.
I don’t think that this request is insane, for TRAINING purpose
@MaxWaldorf said in Training features request:
For the time being, use cheats as proposed but I don’t see value for BMS to undertake such a work to reduce realism…
My friend, BMS already has unlimited fuel and unlimited weapons and the @Ironman3 request will reduce realism???
Mayby it’s <more realistic> of the species existing now.@spooky said in Training features request:
Again, BMS team has the right to say no and i think the reasons why we say no are as legit as your requests.
It’s only a request not a demand
@Atlas said in Training features request:
I am curious how you guys are running your training.
I hope you got your answer
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@kodi said in Training features request:
Atlas in my wild guess I believe you 've approached this post with denial and tunnel vision since the begining.
Otherwise you would have undestood that the 2 bullet points in my post for case 1 are complimenting each other.On the contrary, I am curious as to your unique situation. I admit my experience is limited so I acknowledge that this is perhaps a scenario I have not understood properly, so I appreciate you taking the time to explain. So perhaps not tunnel vision and denial but rather lack of experience.
@kodi said in Training features request:
I wrote that with unlimited fuel the VUL& TOT have no meanining, I am pretty sure the reason is clear and has definitelly nothing to do with mission planning.
Of course I agree that with unlimited fuel, VUL and TOT have no meaning. But how is unlimited fuel different from being able to magically inject fuel on demand? How does one take away meaning but the other preserve meaning?
@kodi said in Training features request:
Earlier I mentioned to you that for case 1 this function is to “enable/simulate” QRA (Scramble) aircraft without having the players either to wait in a cold plane on the ground for 30-45’, or, exiting the 3d to get the QRA jets.
Maybe I’ve not understood how you’re implementing this scenario then. Can you give a better picture?
@kodi said in Training features request:
So in your opinion, a person from trainee pilot to a wing commander is not allowed to make an error?
Of course not. But as I previously said, make them pay for the error in a realistic fashion since you mention realism. Land at an alternate airbase, go hit up the tanker, fly conservatively, etc etc. Or magically inject fuel into the tanks, but then don’t say this is realism
@kodi said in Training features request:
This link has a list of accidents happened in RL by RL pilots where they were mostly trained beyond AdT ,and yet, they made the error.So where is the article that says they magically got fuel in their tanks? Errors happen. Being able to deal with it is a key to being a good pilot.
@kodi said in Training features request:
You made all you arguments based on the AAR, I am confident that once you understand why we don’t want to use the tanker it will be easier to grasp the reason why Ironman asked for this “cheat”.
Having the option to refill the aircraft “magically” midair at a preset value of 4-5K lbs, in case of somebody’s error, will allow my flight objectives to be completed rather than postponed for a next flight.
I can somewhat see how the cheat will help, still not 100% clear on it. But the disconnect is still there. You guys claim realism and putting hours in making a good mission and training and flying with guys with lots of hours, but at the same breath ask for magic gas. Realism means if someone makes an error, flight objectives will not be met or will have to be met some other way and most of my most memorable flights have been these types of flights. Heck, I remember a failed flight escorting a wingman back home and keeping bad guys off him more clearly than a successful mission that went smoothly.
Once again, I’d like to say absolutely nothing wrong with how you guys fly! Once again, if you guys have big smiles at the end of the day, who cares if you used unlimited fuel or not? I’m just here asking questions due to my own curiosity about the logic disconnect and hope to learn from it. Not judging anyone at all and I really appreciate the examples!
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@Morgan said in Training features request:
I really don’t understand how a simple request results in how he trains a squadron.
You think after 10 years that he don’t knows about unlimited fuel and unlimited weapons or flights in the frag?
Why don’t you think out of a box and try to understant or ask him the reason for these requests?Sorry, did you miss all the previous discussion and questions?
@Morgan said in Training features request:
In the above example the main purpose of the training flight is the (4)
Now let’s say that the trainee do bad fuel managment and fuels do not reach him for 3 passes in the target and for LAND.
We will miss the main purpose of the flight.
Or for reload: 3 not good pass and we want one more for better results
So: If i use unlimited fuel i think that the trainee will not managment fuels, from the other case i can give him a second chance.
If i use unlimited weapons and the trainee is doing well, the weight of the aircraft will not change and on the landing it will be heavy.
Again i say it is a training flight and the main purpose is the pop up attacks.
I don’t think that this request is insane, for TRAINING purposeSure, and I can see the point there. For training purpose, why not frag a tanker near your range? If the trainee does bad fuel management, then get him to hit the tanker. That’s even more training for him, pointing out how he did bad fuel management and getting him to polish his AAR skills. Might even practice how to locate the tanker and plan a rejoin.
Or if it is a training flight and the main purpose is the pop up attacks, then why not start on a hot jet, burner all the way to the range, do your practice attacks, then quit the mission? In the time you save for startup, enroute, egress, and landing, you can probably do another training session. The main purpose is practicing an attack, who cares about fuel states and joker/bingo?
As for unlimited ammo, I could’ve sworn Falcon had this. Maybe it was Allied Force? But I see your point on not losing weight and not being able to appreciate the difference in aircraft performance.
@Morgan said in Training features request:
I hope you got your answer
I’ve got an answer. Thanks for your insight! Much appreciated!
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@Atlas said in Training features request:
Sorry, did you miss all the previous discussion and questions?
No, i don’t miss nothing my friend. I am just expressing a question
@Atlas said in Training features request:
Sure, and I can see the point there. For training purpose, why not frag a tanker near your range? If the trainee does bad fuel management, then get him to hit the tanker. That’s even more training for him, pointing out how he did bad fuel management and getting him to polish his AAR skills. Might even practice how to locate the tanker and plan a rejoin.
First of all i will agee with you,
Has it occurred to you that the time I can devote to the sim may be limited? or we have not put an AAP flight?
Nobody said we would press the magic button on every flight, but sometimes it can be magic. What is bad? you can save time for more debriefing.@Atlas said in Training features request:
Or if it is a training flight and the main purpose is the pop up attacks, then why not start on a hot jet, burner all the way to the range, do your practice attacks, then quit the mission? In the time you save for startup, enroute, egress, and landing, you can probably do another training session. The main purpose is practicing an attack, who cares about fuel states and joker/bingo?
My answer:
@Morgan said in Training features request:
When I train a pilot I try to see and show him not one object but the whole phase of the flight:
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@Morgan said in Training features request:
No, i don’t miss nothing my friend. I am just expressing a question
So I am not sure why you are asking that question then as I have clearly asked him the reason for this odd request and asked how one option (unlimited fuel) is not acceptable. As I said, claiming realism but then asking for a magic refuel option is a disconnect.
@Morgan said in Training features request:
Has it occurred to you that the time I can devote to the sim may be limited? or we have not put an AAP flight?
So why not focus on what your main objective is? Why do T/O - rejoin - navigate - [main objective] - rejoin - land when you can probably do 2 or 3 rounds of that [main objective] if you start a TE in mid-air a few nm from the fence-in point? Especially if you have limited time, then you are not wasting time on things that you are not focusing on, such as the other phases of flight. Starting in mid-air also eliminates the bad fuel management problem.
Like if a buddy and I want to practice A-A engagements and doing offensive/defensive/neutral starts, we can frag a flight where we do everything from startup to shutdown if we have the time to spare or, as more often is the case, we’ll just skip all of that and fly a dogfight or custom TE.