SA10 vs SDB or JSOW
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@ricnunes said in SA10 vs SDB or JSOW:
Flying slow does and can present an extra challenge for a radar to lock on as it can be seen over Ukraine where even the most advanced Russian Air Defence Systems have had a harm time to shot down even something like a loitering Bayraktar TB2 UAV which has a quite larger RCS than a JDAM.
The Bayraktar TB2 offensive success was actually a very small window in time as Russia had to consolidate Air Defense Ops and then the Ukrainians slow played the release of footage:
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@ricnunes
Actually TB2 is not good example of hard target. Over 20 was lost in Ukraine and this equipment is really overrated . It can operated only in area without ECM coverage and without basic AD.@white_fang
Did I mentioned about VSU airstrikes over russian terytory or sth like this?
Khesron oblast was and is now ukrainian teritory AFAIK.None of carying HARMs Mig ever returned? So how VSU put on YT videos from launch at least 4 HARMS from them?
I know about russians statistics where they shoot down more planes tha Ukraine posses before war…
M8 I am far from believing everything that is written on the internet and everything that the propaganda of both sides preaches but there are volounteers from my country wichone helping Ukrainians and the saw a lil bit more than we can.
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@pgk007 said in SA10 vs SDB or JSOW:
As life has shown, the SA-10 is not capable of shooting HARMs.
WUT?
At least 16 SA-10 FCRs destroyed by HARMs during the Ukrainian offensive in the Kherson region are confirmed.
WUT?
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@molnibalage
One of our best OSINT analysts Jarosław Wolski said it this after the UA Kherson offensive -
@pgk007 said in SA10 vs SDB or JSOW:
Actually TB2 is not good example of hard target. Over 20 was lost in Ukraine and this equipment is really overrated . It can operated only in area without ECM coverage and without basic AD.
Well, losing 20 (or a bit more) slow but not so small TB2 UAVs during a full year of conventional war against an enemy (Russia) well equipped with Air Defence Systems is IMO not that bad. Not bad at at all.
A clear situation that shown that even something like the TB2 is not that easy to be shot down was during the battle for the “Snake island” where Ukrainian TB2s were able to destroy SA-15s and Pantsir Air Defence Systems thus paving the way to subsequent manned fighter aircraft attack (like for example Su-27s) and later on, allowing the Ukrainians to retake the island.
Of course and obviously a JDAM is much, much harder to be shot down compared to a TB2 UAV. -
@ricnunes
About “Snake Island” thats true but im not sure if Pantsir and SA-15 were active ATM
What i know for sure TB2 are not able to operate in area where russians using jammers. And luckly for UAF there were no jammers on Island. -
@pgk007 I think I Ukraine they were not active, but in Libya ~10 pantsirs destroyed (most of them active) for ~20 tb2 losses and in Syria also lots of air defense systems struck with 1 or 0 tb2 losses. IMO IADS network and jamming changes things a lot, for example in Syria there was heavy jamming during whole operation by Turkish systems so there were nearly no losses. Plus Syrian air defense was integrated. In Libya there was no jamming from Turkish side and Pantsirs+Krasukha jammers inflicted relatively high losses. But in Ukraine after a few weeks, heavy Russian jamming and IADS forced all tb2s to be grounded or converted to long range ISR role. Also despite HARMs i didn’t see much effect on Russian air defenses. Especially no for s300, they are not visually confirmed.
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Tb2 is also relatively low observable for air defense systems because of radar cross section from downside -
Finally as big Bird’s tracking angle is 90 degree, I’d just change attack azimuth for SDBs and sa-10 can do nothing to 32x SDBs swarm
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@pgk007 said in SA10 vs SDB or JSOW:
@molnibalage
One of our best OSINT analysts Jarosław Wolski said it this after the UA Kherson offensivePlease link to us.
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@molnibalage
https://www.youtube.com/@wolskiowojnie
Unfortunatelly its in polish language. It was around august - september. -
@pgk007 said in SA10 vs SDB or JSOW:
@molnibalage
https://www.youtube.com/@wolskiowojnie
Unfortunatelly its in polish language. It was around august - september.Pls find if you can maybe the slides - if there is any - can be useful.
I have VERY, VERY serious doubts about his claim…First of all, RUS does not use the SA-10…
SA-10A = S-300PT
SA-10B = S-300PSEven these had to prove their anti ARM capability. Also it would be funny to be ineffective against these because it also would mean on ships the S-300 Fort is ineffective against ASMs like AGM-84…
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@molnibalage
I’ll try to check it though
the problem is that i don’t remember exactly when he said it because i try to watch every report of him (and not just him, btw).I do not know exactly which versions (specifically the radars) were destroyed, but as you know, there are 13 versions of the S-300P series.
As for the Fort system, it was not very effective against the Harpoon-class ASM, since the pride of the Black Sea Fleet, the 1st rank MOSKVA cruiser, changed its classification to a submarine.
I know it’s a bit sarcastic but how many times can you hear about the failures of Russian equipment because the crew was not prepared, or the radars were not turned on, or something didn’t work because someone stole something or it was an export version (I hope you know what I mean )I am far from completely underestimating Russian equipment, but I have the impression that the advertising materials of their design offices do not fully reflect reality.
Cheers -
P.S
I found a nice article on defence24.pl
Analyzing the attack on the airport in Bielogrod:https://defence24.com/armed-forces/belgorod-russian-air-defences-compromised
Interesting conclusions
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well one thing seems to matter
is SA10 really using Active Missile as we have in BMS ?
because ready this article, (which could be as well western propaganda) it seems all RUS sams are SAHR and not AHR ?
and is the PAtriot using AHR as well ?
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@Mav-jp
It depend wich version::
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This post is deleted! -
@pgk007 said in SA10 vs SDB or JSOW:
@Mav-jp
It depend wich version::
From what I see here none of them is AHR
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@Mav-jp
Wow, I think you have a point here. I took this for granted all the years.
Although, as you see you can refer to an S-400 as an SA-10F, too…Edit: And important are the missiles used:
ARH are 9M96E1, 9M96E2 and 40N6 -
@pgk007 said in SA10 vs SDB or JSOW:
@molnibalage
I’ll try to check it though
the problem is that i don’t remember exactly when he said it because i try to watch every report of him (and not just him, btw).I do not know exactly which versions (specifically the radars) were destroyed, but as you know, there are 13 versions of the S-300P series.
As for the Fort system, it was not very effective against the Harpoon-class ASM, since the pride of the Black Sea Fleet, the 1st rank MOSKVA cruiser, changed its classification to a submarine.
I know it’s a bit sarcastic but how many times can you hear about the failures of Russian equipment because the crew was not prepared, or the radars were not turned on, or something didn’t work because someone stole something or it was an export version (I hope you know what I mean )I am far from completely underestimating Russian equipment, but I have the impression that the advertising materials of their design offices do not fully reflect reality.
CheersNope…
S-300PT (was also PT-1)
S-300PS
S-300PMU (export variant of the PS with different unit composition)
S-300PM1 (export variant PMU1)
S-300MP2 (export variant PMU2)
S-300PM3 = S-400 (also has export variant)No matter how I count you can’t find 13 versions unless you count two the naval S-300 variants, which are not “P”. They are S-300F and FM…
Considering all of these is “only 12”.It does not matter what SAMs and radars you have if you do not use them.
Even the S-300PT demonstrated to be able to track and launch small supersonic missile or terrain following CM. Without it never would have passed on the state trials.
Saying that lone MiG/Su fighters with the most primitive (only a hack) use of AGM-88 killed so many of them is simply funny.