Start sequence order by tower
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@Prot said in Start sequence order by tower:
In real life has the commander of the wing/squadron the power. The planning of take of sequence is dictated by the task. Yes, the task of the tower is to get the flights safe into the air and back down. But that doesn’t mean the tower can change the commander’s plan for no reason.
The environment was safe, there was no reason mix up the take off sequence.Yes, and that’s what is actually happening here in a way, it’s just that BMS Ops “commander” sees the priority differently than you. A wing/squadron commander can’t just get on an ATC freq and “order” a takeoff sequence. Base ops, ATO tasking/priority, landing traffic, ground crew support, emergencies, etc. all come into play there. Yes, Ops ground based representatives maybe able to argue your takeoff sequence for you, but it’s not going to be you with your butt in the seat saying “let my flight taxi now.” That could be some of what is done on the Ops frequency that we currently don’t really use in BMS, but that’s not actually an ATC freq so it would be relayed to the ground controller after passing through probably multiple links in the chain. It’s still not a order that can be done from the cockpit, in USAF ATC one of the few times an enlisted E-3 can tell an officer O-7 what to do. That O-7 might be able to strongly impose their will via back channels via Ops freq etc. but it still would be other people in a room saying, “the General really wants to go now, how far forward can we realistically bump him?” and it still may not be the front of the line. Again as @Mav-jp and I are saying, this problem is being exacerbated by airbase parking slots on the designer side but then something with your Campaign ATO or TE flights amount.
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To put in a bit of context: The behavior Prot is talking about happens on a AB with two runways. There are 2 sqdn on the airbase and about 10 Aircraft planned for take off with a time seperation of two minutes between flights, all in a TE. There are no approaching aicraft.
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@Korbi that helps. 3 flights of 4/2 or 4 flights of 4/2 (@Prot mentioned at least one flight of 4) ?
What airbases? I’ve seen parking congestion cause delays like this. You may have to stagger your take off times even more or elimate flights that aren’t really needed. There are reasons that there are holding times built into package push points on campaign planned flight plans, and ATC delays is one of those reasons.
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@Korbi said in Start sequence order by tower:
To put in a bit of context: The behavior Prot is talking about happens on a AB with two runways. There are 2 sqdn on the airbase and about 10 Aircraft planned for take off with a time seperation of two minutes between flights, all in a TE. There are no approaching aicraft.
and what is the issue ?
is the real take off time greater than 10 minutes compared with the planned one ?
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The airbase in the special case is Gio del Colle in Balkans.
The issue is as explained in the beginning, ATC does not respect the taxi que according to T/O times. Thats the reason, ATC cannot hold T/O times and for extreme waiting times to get a taxi clearance. Also ATC does not send the flights to line up and wait on the RWY.
All these issues are in BALKANS, we are NOT talking KTO here.
And why Prot is reporting that behavior? In KTO everything works like described already, taxing in the correct order, T/O can be held, line up and wait commands, all like a charm.
Off course delays should and can be expected and be accounted for in planning. KTO sometimes also needs that, due to technical problems during start up etc etc, but in KTO the problems Prot described here are simply not apparent.And that is the reason he is reporting issues for Balkans ATC, as it behaviors very differently to KTO ATC.
The issues in Balkans ATC are there for a lot of versions already, its not new too, so it it is definitely a problem, not a issue of this single TE. -
@Korbi said in Start sequence order by tower:
The airbase in the special case is Gio del Colle in Balkans.
The issue is as explained in the beginning, ATC does not respect the taxi que according to T/O times. Thats the reason, ATC cannot hold T/O times and for extreme waiting times to get a taxi clearance. Also ATC does not send the flights to line up and wait on the RWY.
All these issues are in BALKANS, we are NOT talking KTO here.
And why Prot is reporting that behavior? In KTO everything works like described already, taxing in the correct order, T/O can be held, line up and wait commands, all like a charm.
Off course delays should and can be expected and be accounted for in planning. KTO sometimes also needs that, due to technical problems during start up etc etc, but in KTO the problems Prot described here are simply not apparent.And that is the reason he is reporting issues for Balkans ATC, as it behaviors very differently to KTO ATC.
The issues in Balkans ATC are there for a lot of versions already, its not new too, so it it is definitely a problem, not a issue of this single TE.that ATC sometimes do not respect the exact order ot TE take off is expected, it will not reshuffle more than a few minutes though
that some airbases are not working is specific to the airbase setup by the theater dev indeed
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Once again, this is only about adhering to the take-off sequence, there is no other aircraft influencing the mission at this time.
It’s a training mission, first 2, then 4, then 2 and then 2 more aircraft are to take off.
In described example the first 2-ship a human and an AI pilot, in the 4-ship 4 humans, then again times 2 AI pilots. All aircraft are supposed to be manned by people, but the number available fluctuates because people do this in their spare time and are not always available.
The way to the runway is short, there is absolutely no reason to mix the T/O times.
In BMS it is not like in other flight sims the possiblity to control the AI in a simple way like:
When an own A/C has reached a point then do this or that.
That would help in training missions. One could adjust the level of difficulty according to the trainees skills.
Back to the topic: The mix of the t/o sequence happens sometimes in some of our self designed training missions. I can’t recognise a pattern.
I have nothing against the AI intervening in certain areas but if these interventions are pointless then they are just a nuisance. -
@Prot said in Start sequence order by tower:
Once again, this is only about adhering to the take-off sequence, there is no other aircraft influencing the mission at this time.
It’s a training mission, first 2, then 4, then 2 and then 2 more aircraft are to take off.
In described example the first 2-ship a human and an AI pilot, in the 4-ship 4 humans, then again times 2 AI pilots. All aircraft are supposed to be manned by people, but the number available fluctuates because people do this in their spare time and are not always available.
The way to the runway is short, there is absolutely no reason to mix the T/O times.
In BMS it is not like in other flight sims the possiblity to control the AI in a simple way like:
When an own A/C has reached a point then do this or that.
That would help in training missions. One could adjust the level of difficulty according to the trainees skills.
Back to the topic: The mix of the t/o sequence happens sometimes in some of our self designed training missions. I can’t recognise a pattern.
I have nothing against the AI intervening in certain areas but if these interventions are pointless then they are just a nuisance.i think i am not clear
that ATC reshuffle the flights not in the exact same order that the TE TO time is EXPECTED.
It shouldnt be more than a few minutes though and this should not prevent the Package to be on time at push point because ATO generated Holding Point for this
This is a limitation of the Airbase whole system for now , and this would be quite difficult to make the Spaw point in the exact sequence to respect absolute Take off Ordering , due to the complexity of airbases and the huge amount of flights generated / spawning in campaign.
We could try to make the Deaggregation code sorting out the flights by Take off time , it would ensure in a way that it will work for your TE Case , but that’s risky
It’s too long to explain WHY we have this limitation but this is due to DEaggregation / reaggregation process.
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@Mav-jp And that is okay. The sole reason we are pointing that out, is that in KTO there are no issues and in BTO there are, so the theater devs get input and feedback for their work. Maybe they are able to make it work as it does in KTO by redesigning parts of the airbase structures in BTO.
There is no point in arguing on and on, more it would be more usefull to accept the fact, that BTO currently is not working as fluid in respects to ATC as KTO does and we just report that, so it gets added to the known issues list and devs of BTO can have a look at it - IF THEY WANT and have the time
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@Korbi said in Start sequence order by tower:
@Mav-jp And that is okay. The sole reason we are pointing that out, is that in KTO there are no issues and in BTO there are, so the theater devs get input and feedback for their work. Maybe they are able to make it work as it does in KTO by redesigning parts of the airbase structures in BTO.
There is no point in arguing on and on, more it would be more usefull to accept the fact, that BTO currently is not working as fluid in respects to ATC as KTO does and we just report that, so it gets added to the known issues list and devs of BTO can have a look at it - IF THEY WANT and have the time
i can garantee that KTO has the same issue of reshuffling the FLights . It’s because if Server is entering in the same time window (20 mn) of all the planned flights, all flights are deagged in the same time , but not in the order of FLight take off time. it’s like random deagg of Flight List.
In that case, the first flight deaggs and spawn, takes the closest Parkinf Slots, then the second and so on.
If Flights are deagged not in the same order than take off time, then this can be messy…
but…i will think about it, got other priorities right now
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@Mav-jp Copy that. Maybe it’s also due to one or two other factors that it at least seems to be working better in KTO than BTO. Why this is, I cannot tell, as I have absolutely no clue of the code behind the scenes.
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There are better reasons to follow ATC or not than “real life”. Real life ATC aren’t artificial intelligences. Real life ATC are not updated with BMS to be better every time. Real life ATC have no bugs, just people who can mess. All that is very different. Let’s be reasonable.
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@Prot Yes be patient and wait your turn. BMS will sequence you as needed. If you taxi too soon it can cause all kinds of trouble including wingman not taking off.
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@Mav-jp said in Start sequence order by tower:
i can garantee that KTO has the same issue of reshuffling the FLights .
I can absolutely confirm that this happens in KTO.
Ironman