Fragments from the explosion: how high to fly?
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@Stevie
Stevie, they are right.
take a look into here:
C:/Falcon BMS 4.37/Docs/02 Aircraft Manuals & Checklists/01 F-16/TO 1F-16CMAM-34-1-1 BMS.pdf@For all
Sorry guys, I didn’t take a look inside this file. My fault. -
@tdr said in Fragments from the explosion: how high to fly?:
@Stevie
Stevie, they are right.
take a look into here:
C:/Falcon BMS 4.37/Docs/02 Aircraft Manuals & Checklists/01 F-16/TO 1F-16CMAM-34-1-1 BMS.pdf@For all
Sorry guys, I didn’t take a look inside this file. My fault.Yes - that’s what I looked at…but given that the -34 is included with every release, I wouldn’t doubt that it has been revised over the years - at least I’d hope so. The current one in 4.37 is only 350 pages long, and when I searched it on “frag” none of the information we’re looking for (specifically “daisy plots” of any kind) is in there…but that doesn’t mean it may not have been in there at some point…I’d think.
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@Stevie The latest version is 609 pages. Can’t remember when during 4.37.3 release it was published, initially or with one of the two hot-fixes. Has a lot more A-G info (among other things)
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@Stevie Sure you are not looking at the the 4.35 docs? 🤭
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@Stevie said in Fragments from the explosion: how high to fly?:
@tdr said in Fragments from the explosion: how high to fly?:
@Stevie
Stevie, they are right.
take a look into here:
C:/Falcon BMS 4.37/Docs/02 Aircraft Manuals & Checklists/01 F-16/TO 1F-16CMAM-34-1-1 BMS.pdf@For all
Sorry guys, I didn’t take a look inside this file. My fault.Yes - that’s what I looked at…but given that the -34 is included with every release, I wouldn’t doubt that it has been revised over the years - at least I’d hope so. The current one in 4.37 is only 350 pages long, and when I searched it on “frag” none of the information we’re looking for (specifically “daisy plots” of any kind) is in there…but that doesn’t mean it may not have been in there at some point…I’d think.
4.35 does not include frag damage so nothing to worry about
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@jayb said in Fragments from the explosion: how high to fly?:
@Stevie The latest version is 609 pages. Can’t remember when during 4.37.3 release it was published, initially or with one of the two hot-fixes. Has a lot more A-G info (among other things)
Now that’s a thought…I need to go look at the docs in my 4.37.3 folder. Pretty sure what I’ve been looking at came from my 4.37.0 install.
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@Stevie said in Fragments from the explosion: how high to fly?:
@jayb said in Fragments from the explosion: how high to fly?:
@Stevie The latest version is 609 pages. Can’t remember when during 4.37.3 release it was published, initially or with one of the two hot-fixes. Has a lot more A-G info (among other things)
Now that’s a thought…I need to go look at the docs in my 4.37.3 folder. Pretty sure what I’ve been looking at came from my 4.37.0 install.
…ok, this is interesting - when I go look at the Docs folder in my 4.37.3 install, NONE of the .pdf files that used to be at top level are there. And if I look in the BMS Manuals folder, neither of the TO-BMS (-1 or -34) ones are in there.
Did the new Launcher screw me at install here?
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@Stevie said in Fragments from the explosion: how high to fly?:
@Stevie said in Fragments from the explosion: how high to fly?:
@jayb said in Fragments from the explosion: how high to fly?:
@Stevie The latest version is 609 pages. Can’t remember when during 4.37.3 release it was published, initially or with one of the two hot-fixes. Has a lot more A-G info (among other things)
Now that’s a thought…I need to go look at the docs in my 4.37.3 folder. Pretty sure what I’ve been looking at came from my 4.37.0 install.
…ok, this is interesting - when I go look at the Docs folder in my 4.37.3 install, NONE of the .pdf files that used to be at top level are there. And if I look in the BMS Manuals folder, neither of the TO-BMS (-1 or -34) ones are in there.
Did the new Launcher screw me at install here?
Nope - finally found them!
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@Stevie
all’s well that ends well -
@tdr - and after looking, I did find two “daisy plots”…trouble is, I have a distinct feeling they are for the same warhead…I used to have to use these almost daily in planning for RL drops back in another life, and they brought back some great memories. This sort of makes me want to think/wonder that all A/G frag burst patterns in BMS are modeled to this single example?
In the RW, there should be examples of these for every A/G weapon and associated detonation mode that the jet can carry. The way to use them is to check your planned time of fall and down range travel against where you will be within this plot…
…and even so, mistakes can still be made - I did have occasion(s) to have pilots bring the jet back having fragged it’s tail a couple times - both occasions were post-strafing, due to late break away during the recovery. Minor damage, but…ouch!..considering real jet, real ammo, real holes.
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Check you have U3 installed. The new -34 (since U3) has nearly 610 pages.
As a reference, please check the documents in our website under „documentation“. Maybe your install process wasn’t successful. -
@Stevie I agree, it looks like the pictures from bms dash 34 are the same warheads. The picture shared by mav JP seems to be the correct ones (I honnestly thought there was more difference in the fragments between those warhead, interesting)
see superimposed pics below
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@Mikyjax said in Fragments from the explosion: how high to fly?:
@Stevie I agree, it looks like the pictures from bms dash 34 are the same warheads. The picture shared by mav JP seems to be the correct ones (I honnestly thought there was more difference in the fragments between those warhead, interesting)
see superimposed pics below
As you can see mk82 and mk84 frag patterns are nearly similars
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There is an extra 27 in one of the charts
OK, I’ll bite! Can someone explain how to use these charts?
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Actually, the inclusion of these two bits of text makes it much more obvious what they are saying
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@Mav-jp said in Fragments from the explosion: how high to fly?:
@Mikyjax said in Fragments from the explosion: how high to fly?:
@Stevie I agree, it looks like the pictures from bms dash 34 are the same warheads. The picture shared by mav JP seems to be the correct ones (I honnestly thought there was more difference in the fragments between those warhead, interesting)
see superimposed pics below
As you can see mk82 and mk84 frag patterns are nearly similars
Which makes sense ballistically. The fragments and explosive velocity would be similar. Mk.84 would have more fragments but the engery of them are going to be similar with the same explosive. It’s like different gauges of shotgun shells if you’re familiar, the pellets are propelled at similar speeds, but different gauges have more pellets. So the fragment cloud is going to be denser with the Mk.84 and slightly further distance. I don’t know about shock wave strength effects though, probably stronger?
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@Snake122 - don’t confuse ballistics with the effect of a static explosion…which is what these represent. Based on experience with the weapon(s) in question, there is no way that a 500 lb warhead will exhibit the same explosive energy as a 2000 lb one. Also, having walked the ranges and picked up chunks of RL MK80 series frag, I can also tell you that the chunks aren’t the same size between the two. I can see the two are different, I just don’t believe they are different enough…
These plots have nothing to do with ballistics - which have to do with sight picture to place the impact where you want it to be. They are the observation of a static destination on the ground, and that is all.
Effects of how the weapon impacts are not depicted (or considered) in these plots. Only position/expectation of frag in seconds post static detonation.
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@CriticalMass - so there are really three charts you have to use:
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the ballistics tables for a manual release of the weapon. This will tell you what mil depression the release will occur at, what range to target and altitude you will be at, and the time of fall for the release.
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the dive recovery chart(s) for your aircraft - there are more than one, based on target G during recovery. This will tell you how far down range you will travel from the time of release to full dive recovery to level flight (usually with a 2 sec reaction time to initiate).
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once the above are known, you plot your down range travel against the bottom axis of the “daisy plot”, and note the time it takes you to get there - then compare that time to the frag envelope post destination (which is time of fall plus your recovery time).
This is why you have to have all of this information for each specific munition…your GWT/speed/dive angle/G limits will factor into the dive recovery and thus the end answer. Most of the time you may just plan to clear top of frag (and/or avoid terrain - dive recovery charts consider terrain avoidance only), unless tactical situation dictates you fly lower.
Back when I was working Harrier we used to drop one of EVERYTHING in the TACMAN during Verification…I was responsible for the weaponeering for every drop series, so I got to do a LOT of this. One of my favorite calculation was to calculate the size of the bomblet pattern on the deck for MK20s released in pairs and bet against my pilot - I’d use the book, he’d use experience. The book was generally right…fun stuff.
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Found this in the BEM pdf page 404 5-88 . Maybe it would apply to debris ?Screenshot_20231221_195549_Adobe Acrobat.jpg