Mainly for Mav-JP - 12 degrees stick axes offset
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Instead of asking for a software change, why not just build your pit to match reality?
Re-read my post, I said there, physically is damn difficult to do because commercial force sensor are not rotate. I am not asking for a change, I donāt dear beacause I donāt know how difficult it is, I just inquiring about itās doability/difficulty. When I get that answer maybe I ask for it
Cheers
Tulkas
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Guys, I can tell you what I know for sure:
The force sensor is rotated 12 degrees outboard (cw): ->FACT (at least in some F16 variants, I cannot claim to have seen pictures of all F16s SSC in the world)
The stick is not rotated (is aligned to AC long. axes): ->FACTI just had physically modified my CougarFSSB to get that axis offset.
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I think the easy way to do this would be to take out the connection at the base of the stick grip, and create a replica one with the flanges on it set 12 degrees from their current position. only a guess though, as I have not even gotten close to that stage yet.
You still have the problem of the stick. You either get a custom made force sensor with the stick connection rotated regarding the sensor (where do you get that) or design and make (anyone?) a custom adaptor to connect the stick rotated to a normal force sensor. And that adaptor needs to be damn strong because you are going to exert all the control forces on it. Not easy to fabricate.
This is my setup:
Cheers
Tulkas
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I donāt think this request is valid, what you describe is a physical feature that should; not pass to a simulation through software. To accurately represent any side-effects from inexperienced visitors due to the stick actual angular displacement (front 13 degrees and right 12 degrees) in a real or home cockpit, you must install and use force sensors to the stick like FSSB-R2/3 or FCC-3. You can also spend your money on this Cougar grip adapter of Robert, to achieve the proper 13 degrees forward lean of a Cougar or Warthog sticks, either on there original base or the SCC, real or machined. The outcome before vs new:
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Iām familiar with Dunkās adaptor, but it only corrects the leaning forward of the stick which is a pure physical feature. I got that right in my pit.
But for the rotation of the sensor (NOT THE STICK) there is nothing available as far as I know. I thought that to implement it in BMS would be no different than any other flight law: if pilot inputs back->aircraft pitch up and roll right. But again, I am not qualified to say so, thatās why I ask.
I just had physically modified my CougarFSSB to get that axis offset.
I have an FCC but I would be very interested in knowing your solution. Do you have it ilustrated in some webside?
Thanks!
Tulkas
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agreed, it must remain an hardware modification, not a software one.itās easy enough to do
the fcc slides into the base, make a new set of holes into the base 12Ā° outboard and youāre done, your fcc is rotated right 12Ā°
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@Red:
agreed, it must remain an hardware modification, not a software one.itās easy enough to do
the fcc slides into the base, make a new set of holes into the base 12Ā° outboard and youāre done, your fcc is rotated right 12Ā°
Then you are rotating the stick as well, and thatās not correct. Itās not easy at all to rotate the sensor but not the stick.
Cheers
Tulkas
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for the rotation of the sensor (NOT THE STICK)
Then you are rotating the stick as well, and thatās not correct
Are you sure that the real stick is not aligned with the real sensors below? So when these 2 are placed on the SCC they both should have the 12 degrees cw angle.
BTW the reason for this 12deg placement is due to the stick being in side, thus it needs to follow the physical pilot arm positioning and extension.
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Are you sure that the real stick is not aligned with the real sensors below?
Iām 100% sure, there are no doubts about that. The stick is NOT rotated. Real F16:
Thatās the physical problem to implement it and thaās why I thought about a software solution.
Cheers
Tulkas
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Basically he is saying that in the real F16 when you move the stick purely FWD you got a mix between fwd and roll
We are not talking about a base or stick rotation here but a mixing of axisSo in our sim , two ways to do it
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keep base and stick aligned and rotate internally the sensors
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creat a software axis mixing
I would vote 2 if I had to do it
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Thanks for showing up Mav.
Well, from your answer I get you consider it should be not that hard (at lest less hard than a hardware modification) but doesnāt look it could get in the BMS agenda. Fair enough, I understand we are quite a tiny minority inside the BMS users and there are much greater priorities.
Anyways, at least I leave the idea in the air and maybe some of the bright minds which are around in the forums catch it up and try to make a small external software or BMS mod. Itās a small detail but is nevertheless pushing in the direction of even more realism for our sim.
Cheers
Tulkas
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Hey Mav-JP
If there is going to some SW solution for that, then think of a solution where we can choose if we want that on or off. I have the real stick and base and it works great as the way it is now.
In some replica designs there was a misunderstanding of the 12 degree and then they rotated that stick with the sensors 12 degree and then you end up with an angled ofset stick pos, and that feels wieard, but you get use to it.
Its absolutely not a problem I think.I dont know how those real sensors is calibrated, but if I push/pull picth up and down direct 12/6 oĀ“clock then I dont get a mix here, so it might be calibrated so that when you really pull hard then you tend to move the stick into your body and then the calibration of the 12 degree kicks in and compensate for that. (really dont know)
Basic I Dont think its a problem for us pitbuilders, but it sure is good to know how it works.
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Basically he is saying that in the real F16 when you move the stick purely FWD you got a mix between fwd and roll
So, you are saying it is how things are in real F-16?
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Hey Mav-JP
If there is going to some SW solution for that, then think of a solution where we can choose if we want that on or off. I have the real stick and base and it works great as the way it is now.
In some replica designs there was a misunderstanding of the 12 degree and then they rotated that stick with the sensors 12 degree and then you end up with an angled ofset stick pos, and that feels wieard, but you get use to it.
Its absolutely not a problem I think.I dont know how those real sensors is calibrated, but if I push/pull picth up and down direct 12/6 oĀ“clock then I dont get a mix here, so it might be calibrated so that when you really pull hard then you tend to move the stick into your body and then the calibration of the 12 degree kicks in and compensate for that. (really dont know)
Basic I Dont think its a problem for us pitbuilders, but it sure is good to know how it works.
so you are saying that the real stick does not have this 12 deg mix between axis ?
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Yes.
I know the transducers is offset 12 degree, but I cant feel it or see it in the cougar viewer.I will test more extensive tonight and let you know, but so far it just feels perfect, I will try to pull really hard on the pitch up and see if there is a mix there.
NB. We all know the ergonomic reason and teori for the 12 degree CW rotation of the transducers, but how they are calibrated we dont know, and I dont think no one inhere knows.
So we might be guessing here.It could be that the transducers are put there those 12 degree due to manufacturing/engeneering reasons and then they are calibrated to work logic fwd/aft Roll L and R
It could also be that it was due to in the old days when pilots came from a normal moving stick in other jets, that there was a little movement in the new F-16 stick and then they tend to pull it into them self.
but now days the stick is total stiff (can be adjusted in the buttom of the stickbase)Im just guessing here, but some engeneer must know
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Yes.
I know the transducers is offset 12 degree, but I cant feel it or see it in the cougar viewer.I will test more extensive tonight and let you know, but so far it just feels perfect, I will try to pull really hard on the pitch up and see if there is a mix there.
NB. We all know the ergonomic reason and teori for the 12 degree CW rotation of the transducers, but how they are calibrated we dont know, and I dont think no one inhere knows.
So we might be guessing here.It could be that the transducers are put there those 12 degree due to manufacturing/engeneering reasons and then they are calibrated to work logic fwd/aft Roll L and R
It could also be that it was due to in the old days when pilots came from a normal moving stick in other jets, that there was a little movement in the new F-16 stick and then they tend to pull it into them self.
but now days the stick is total stiff (can be adjusted in the buttom of the stickbase)Im just guessing here, but some engeneer must know
could be that the offsset is there for manufacuring reasons and that electronics behind apply the opposite mixing (weird tough)
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IĀ“d like so much to know how it works for real. Just out if plain curiosity.
I quote another owner of a real F16 SCC:
I can assure you that when you press with one finger the lines in foxy are not 12/6 . Before i knew of the 12 degr i thought my SSC was broken or something.
And yet another gut using the real F16 SCC:
To answer your question, you think you are pulling straight back, but you are actually pulling in toward your stomach at about 12 degrees.
Cheers
Tulkas
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Gents, I have tested again
Tested very firmly again, and my stick works straight 12, 3, 6 and 9 oāclock, Just like you would suppose it to work IF you didnāt knew about the 12 degree transducers offset.
Donāt even know if the pilots know that, I would expect NOT, and they just push/pull the stick and the jet react as they would expect it to.
So we might be confused by some smart engineering here
I also guess there is many things in the F-16 we would scratch our head with, just by looking at it and then try to make a conclusion.Just my 2 cents
But I will dig moreā¦ā¦me need some answers.
NB. and the 12 degree transducers offset is definitely NOT something you as pilot shall think about.
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Gents!
One thing there came into my mind here is:on the real stick base there is 2 x 4 transducers and we as pit builders only use one in the pitch and one in the roll.
It could be that some other pit builders have taken one of the transducers there have the offset calibration and there for they get the pitch/roll mix, and I have taken another one.
(All those transducers work in a mix of each other I think)All those transducers is connected to different FLCS systems as backup in the jet, so that if the jet gets a bullet in one, two or tree of those FLCS areas then the stick control still works. ALL four must be taken out before you loose stick control.
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Gents, I have tested again
Tested very firmly again, and my stick works straight 12, 3, 6 and 9 oāclock, Just like you would suppose it to work IF you didnāt knew about the 12 degree transducers offset.
Donāt even know if the pilots know that, I would expect NOT, and they just push/pull the stick and the jet react as they would expect it to.
So we might be confused by some smart engineering here
I also guess there is many things in the F-16 we would scratch our head with, just by looking at it and then try to make a conclusion.Just my 2 cents
But I will dig moreā¦ā¦me need some answers.
NB. and the 12 degree transducers offset is definitely NOT something you as pilot shall think about.
question. how is your SSC connected to your PC? is it being connected to a cougar PCB, then to the PC as normal?
Gents!
One thing there came into my mind here is:on the real stick base there is 2 x 4 transducers and we as pit builders only use one in the pitch and one in the roll.
It could be that some other pit builders have taken one of the transducers there have the offset calibration and there for they get the pitch/roll mix, and I have taken another one.
(All those transducers work in a mis of each other I think)I am not familiar with the brevity āmisā, are you suggesting that some of the transducers are grossly offset from the others axes and when they are averaged, the result is a 12 degree offset? if so, that seems unlikely to me, as the point of having the 4 transducer pairs is to have quadruple redundancyā¦ and that would provide only dual redundancy.