AIM-7M sparrow & the RWR
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I desperately wish I had that ACMI now.
I heard this so many time but I’d like to see 1 person who can record for me please how he can evade AMRAAM shot in the sim fired straight at him from 5-6NM head on at OPERATIONAL parameters (i.e don’t fly 800 knots and dive the ground to shake the missile), I’d REALLY like to see that.
And you see, I don’t care about wild west servers magic shots, or 1 vs 1 DF simulator like training, I care only about a real mission when you really fight as close as you can to what RL pilots do, and THERE I’d like to see someone evade an AIM-120 shot this way in NEZ parameters.
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And you see, I don’t care about wild west servers magic shots, or 1 vs 1 DF simulator like training, I care only about a real mission when you really fight as close as you can to what RL pilots do, and THERE I’d like to see someone evade an AIM-120 shot this way in NEZ parameters.
This is not an answer to Yoni, but I just wanted to point this out, if you fly close to what RL pilots would do, you would never find yourself (knowingly) in the NEZ of a red guy, whatever the mission risk, you respect your timeline and you are out way before that.
Having said that, even if you do what is described above, using whatever game-ish maneuver you like, and come out out alive, then imo this should be examined.
I have not seend the ACMI yet, but what the OP describes is incredibly bad luck or something to be investigated?
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I heard this so many time but I’d like to see 1 person who can record for me please how he can evade AMRAAM shot in the sim fired straight at him from 5-6NM head on at OPERATIONAL parameters (i.e don’t fly 800 knots and dive the ground to shake the missile), I’d REALLY like to see that.
And you see, I don’t care about wild west servers magic shots, or 1 vs 1 DF simulator like training, I care only about a real mission when you really fight as close as you can to what RL pilots do, and THERE I’d like to see someone evade an AIM-120 shot this way in NEZ parameters.
Operational parameters? Fighting the way RL pilots do? Id love to read the RMD and IRMD sections of the AFTTP 3-1, but until those get released (likely the 15th of never), you cannot say what is and is not operational parameters. The closest document that I have found which is available online is the F-16 Basic Employment Manual (not going to link here due to complaints - DESPITE its unclassified unrestricted status), and even that document has nothing on missile defence, just descriptions of how to fly so as to not get in a WEZ - and even then you need to refer to other classified manuals to get actual ranges and so on…
So basically you want to see a RL F-16 pilot record this for you in BMS.
Anyway, the event I was recalling was a training mission, not a ‘real’ mission. It was not 5 to 6 miles, and it was not head on. And as Ive no tapes of it, its not really of much use anyway.
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Here is a off, on page 25 there is statistics of aim-120a &c fired between -92-99.
http://www.mossekongen.no/downloads/2008_RAND_Pacific_View_Air_Combat_Briefing.pdf
Don’t know about references but interesting.
There is also some figures on aim-9m for example, 48 fired and 11kills during DS.Cheers
Excellent read, thanks!
Uwe
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Operational parameters? Fighting the way RL pilots do?…
Yes, a lot of VFSs are flying that way, or AS CLOSE AS POSSIBLE to that. “Real” mission is a situation that you not prepared for anything specific but you are prepared for everything.
But let’s not go ot far with that, a basic campaign flight when you are confronting SU-27s equipped with AA-12s, even that is good enough for me… you bets chance here is to try to defeat them with AMRAAMs or to turn around and run in order to out-range the Adders. Let me know 1 man that can evade those Adders head on and get out alive from such a meeting, but in a “real” mission
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Yes, a lot of VFSs are flying that way, or AS CLOSE AS POSSIBLE to that. “Real” mission is a situation that you not prepared for anything specific but you are prepared for everything.
But let’s not go ot far with that, a basic campaign flight when you are confronting SU-27s equipped with AA-12s, even that is good enough for me… you bets chance here is to try to defeat them with AMRAAMs or to turn around and run in order to out-range the Adders. Let me know 1 man that can evade those Adders head on and get out alive from such a meeting, but in a “real” mission
Well as the adder is modeled very differently to the AIM-120, its really a moot point. Completely different engagement, completely different missile.
Don’t think those VFS’s have AFTTP3-1s to share, and the only squadrons I heard of trying to get as close as possible are the 1st stingers and the viper drivers… and I keep getting the cold shoulder from the viper drivers forums.
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Don’t think those VFS’s have AFTTP3-1s to share, and the only squadrons I heard of trying to get as close as possible are the 1st stingers and the viper drivers…
only… that’s a big word here.
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About what exactly?
Just typical bull****. Our missile cannot be outmanouvered, they are literally immune to jam, etc. Just typical and usual funny comments. Every weapon systems have their own limitations…
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… not only chaffs. Nowadays, even falres has a very weak effiency on most of IR missiles working in band II. The poblem of chaffs is their dispersion and speed decrease making them easy to be rejected by missile AD.
Chaff and flares are not something to guaranty a missile defeat but only a possible chance to survive. The only way to ensure a high chance to survive, is to not enter into the WEZ.
Obviously, running away before they can shoot at you will mean you survive, it also means that the aggressors will be able to do their mission untroubled. part of being a fighter pilot is an aggressive mindset - atleast thats something that has been explictly pointed out in several books I’ve read.
anyway, I think molni’s gripe isnt that chaff arent a failproof ARH decoy, but rather that this ‘chance’ you speak of doesn’t exist in BMS as it stands and that he believes it to be a bug or oversight in the modelling of ARH seekers. He’s not saying that putting out a bit of chaff should always defeat an ARH, or even have a high chance of defeating it, but according to his experiments, the chance of decoying an ARH is 0%. he’s not talking about real life and missiles in 2014, but BMS and the 90’s/00’s it models.
Afaik, theres never really been a satisfactory answer to his question: proof that there is no bug and that chaff can indeed decoy ARH’s, even if its in limited circumstances.
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only… that’s a big word here.
Presumably there are other squadrons out there with this in mind, I dont pretend to know of every squadron or even to know of the aims and goals of every squadron that I HAVE heard of. But the ones I had heard of spending as much time and effort as possible towards replicating real training and real operations, regardless of how required it would be for training and operations in falcon, are the 1st stingers and the viperdrivers.
Just because I havent heard of people trying to do something, doesnt mean its not happening though. Dont misunderstand my intent.
Whilst Id love to hear more about this (no seriously, if you are trying to replicate real life training in your squadron, PM me, I might wanna apply), Its a bit off topic. Im sure you are not deliberately attacking the non relevant parts of my comments to draw attention away from the relevant parts, I-Hawk…?
Out of interest, how do you know that flying 720 knots and diving for the deck is not real operational missile defence?
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Id love to read the RMD and IRMD sections of the AFTTP 3-1, but until those get released (likely the 15th of never), you cannot say what is and is not operational parameters.
Who said that things like missile defense, ranges, speeds or game changing maneuvers etc etc are to be found in the 3-1? You are overestimating the document and veering into “state intelligence” data territory.
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Im sure you are not deliberately attacking the non relevant parts of my comments to draw attention away from the relevant parts, I-Hawk…?
Be sure that I’m not…
Out of interest, how do you know that flying 720 knots and diving for the deck is not real operational missile defence?
I didn’t said that I know, I was just saying that I don’t want to see an example where the target AC is ALREADY flying full burner in order to be able to execute this maneuver fast enough and sharp enough to defeat the missile… that’s what I mean “real” mission parameters… how do you fly in campaigns? how often you are getting past 600 knots? not much, because it’s wasting too much fuel right? so you usually fly ~330-380 knots with CATI config and ~20K right? that’s what I mean.
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Id been assuming (apparently incorrectly) that the AEM was a section of the 3-1.
As far as game changing maneuvers go, the tactics manuals would be exactly where I would expect to find them… All pointless information to me anyway, as my chances of getting my hands on one are likely less than zero.
how do you fly in campaigns? how often you are getting past 600 knots? not much, because it’s wasting too much fuel right? so you usually fly ~330-380 knots with CATI config and ~20K right? that’s what I mean.
Well, in fairness thats how you fly most of the time, but if you are targeted and sorted on a hot target, you will be going much faster…
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Just typical bull****. Our missile cannot be outmanouvered, they are literally immune to jam, etc. Just typical and usual funny comments. Every weapon systems have their own limitations…
Ok … so on diferent forum and not here then.
Every weapon systems have their own limitations…
Absolutely. But of course, confiedntial… and we are not interested in confiential stuffs here at BMS.
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Only a famous Dev quote can save us from this morass…
/quote It’s not a “bug”, it’s a FEATURE…! /unquote
Hope this helps.
Arapr0n.
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why nobody commented these posted ACMIs?
I did not find anything interresting except perhaps missing support “radar line”. I did not see missile drop + relock, rather usuall missile trajectories and quite bad pilot maneuvering. I mean hard brake and imediate turn back to missile collision course…BTW its something I want to make for 2 years - set SARH as ARH (but with just few feet missile radar range) to achive relocking R-24R (with relatively weak MiG-23 redar). But I did not find time to test.
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why nobody commented these posted ACMIs?
Maybe just because many ppl were working or sleeping and didn’t had time/opportunity to download and what the ACMIs yet.