AIM-7M sparrow & the RWR
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Don’t think those VFS’s have AFTTP3-1s to share, and the only squadrons I heard of trying to get as close as possible are the 1st stingers and the viper drivers…
only… that’s a big word here.
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About what exactly?
Just typical bull****. Our missile cannot be outmanouvered, they are literally immune to jam, etc. Just typical and usual funny comments. Every weapon systems have their own limitations…
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… not only chaffs. Nowadays, even falres has a very weak effiency on most of IR missiles working in band II. The poblem of chaffs is their dispersion and speed decrease making them easy to be rejected by missile AD.
Chaff and flares are not something to guaranty a missile defeat but only a possible chance to survive. The only way to ensure a high chance to survive, is to not enter into the WEZ.
Obviously, running away before they can shoot at you will mean you survive, it also means that the aggressors will be able to do their mission untroubled. part of being a fighter pilot is an aggressive mindset - atleast thats something that has been explictly pointed out in several books I’ve read.
anyway, I think molni’s gripe isnt that chaff arent a failproof ARH decoy, but rather that this ‘chance’ you speak of doesn’t exist in BMS as it stands and that he believes it to be a bug or oversight in the modelling of ARH seekers. He’s not saying that putting out a bit of chaff should always defeat an ARH, or even have a high chance of defeating it, but according to his experiments, the chance of decoying an ARH is 0%. he’s not talking about real life and missiles in 2014, but BMS and the 90’s/00’s it models.
Afaik, theres never really been a satisfactory answer to his question: proof that there is no bug and that chaff can indeed decoy ARH’s, even if its in limited circumstances.
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only… that’s a big word here.
Presumably there are other squadrons out there with this in mind, I dont pretend to know of every squadron or even to know of the aims and goals of every squadron that I HAVE heard of. But the ones I had heard of spending as much time and effort as possible towards replicating real training and real operations, regardless of how required it would be for training and operations in falcon, are the 1st stingers and the viperdrivers.
Just because I havent heard of people trying to do something, doesnt mean its not happening though. Dont misunderstand my intent.
Whilst Id love to hear more about this (no seriously, if you are trying to replicate real life training in your squadron, PM me, I might wanna apply), Its a bit off topic. Im sure you are not deliberately attacking the non relevant parts of my comments to draw attention away from the relevant parts, I-Hawk…?
Out of interest, how do you know that flying 720 knots and diving for the deck is not real operational missile defence?
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Id love to read the RMD and IRMD sections of the AFTTP 3-1, but until those get released (likely the 15th of never), you cannot say what is and is not operational parameters.
Who said that things like missile defense, ranges, speeds or game changing maneuvers etc etc are to be found in the 3-1? You are overestimating the document and veering into “state intelligence” data territory.
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Im sure you are not deliberately attacking the non relevant parts of my comments to draw attention away from the relevant parts, I-Hawk…?
Be sure that I’m not…
Out of interest, how do you know that flying 720 knots and diving for the deck is not real operational missile defence?
I didn’t said that I know, I was just saying that I don’t want to see an example where the target AC is ALREADY flying full burner in order to be able to execute this maneuver fast enough and sharp enough to defeat the missile… that’s what I mean “real” mission parameters… how do you fly in campaigns? how often you are getting past 600 knots? not much, because it’s wasting too much fuel right? so you usually fly ~330-380 knots with CATI config and ~20K right? that’s what I mean.
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Id been assuming (apparently incorrectly) that the AEM was a section of the 3-1.
As far as game changing maneuvers go, the tactics manuals would be exactly where I would expect to find them… All pointless information to me anyway, as my chances of getting my hands on one are likely less than zero.
how do you fly in campaigns? how often you are getting past 600 knots? not much, because it’s wasting too much fuel right? so you usually fly ~330-380 knots with CATI config and ~20K right? that’s what I mean.
Well, in fairness thats how you fly most of the time, but if you are targeted and sorted on a hot target, you will be going much faster…
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Just typical bull****. Our missile cannot be outmanouvered, they are literally immune to jam, etc. Just typical and usual funny comments. Every weapon systems have their own limitations…
Ok … so on diferent forum and not here then.
Every weapon systems have their own limitations…
Absolutely. But of course, confiedntial… and we are not interested in confiential stuffs here at BMS.
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Only a famous Dev quote can save us from this morass…
/quote It’s not a “bug”, it’s a FEATURE…! /unquote
Hope this helps.
Arapr0n.
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why nobody commented these posted ACMIs?
I did not find anything interresting except perhaps missing support “radar line”. I did not see missile drop + relock, rather usuall missile trajectories and quite bad pilot maneuvering. I mean hard brake and imediate turn back to missile collision course…BTW its something I want to make for 2 years - set SARH as ARH (but with just few feet missile radar range) to achive relocking R-24R (with relatively weak MiG-23 redar). But I did not find time to test.
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why nobody commented these posted ACMIs?
Maybe just because many ppl were working or sleeping and didn’t had time/opportunity to download and what the ACMIs yet.
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u are right, since I dont smoke anymore, this forum is my procrastinating pause at work….
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u are right, since I dont smoke anymore, this forum is my procrastinating pause at work….
… almost the same, except that I still smoke. (not too much)
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why nobody commented these posted ACMIs?
I did not find anything interresting except perhaps missing support “radar line”. I did not see missile drop + relock, rather usuall missile trajectories and quite bad pilot maneuvering. I mean hard brake and imediate turn back to missile collision course…BTW its something I want to make for 2 years - set SARH as ARH (but with just few feet missile radar range) to achive relocking R-24R (with relatively weak MiG-23 redar). But I did not find time to test.
the pertinent part being the fact that those missiles were totally silent for 90% of their flight. he does a hard turn into the missile path because a SARH has gone totally silent and it’s host plane isn’t even on RWR any more.
please read the post before you start making snide comments about maneuvering. thanks.
and tbh if the RWR had blind spots i’d be fine with it. the plane clearly rolls through pretty much every approach. he goes from nose on to belly on to nose again and it’s still totally silent. effectively it means that if you are fired upon you have to roll the dice and figure out if it’s a bugged missile. going kinetic defensive (IE, this shit isn’t going to hit me because i’m heading for the deck at 600~ knots) effectively means you’ve lost the engagement because by sparrow WEZ you’re already 5 seconds from fox 2 range. those things will just follow you and fox2 and there’s nothing you can do about it. because you have to assume (just like AA-12) that you’ve been fired at and you can’t see it. i don’t know if this happens to players, but if it doesn’t it’s a huge and annoying advantage for the AI over sparrow-armed players.
note: at least the AA-12 doesn’t sidestep the laws of physics. if it’s terminal on you you can see it. if you screw up you’re probably dead anyway but it’s not a totally passive missile that’s supposed to be anything but passive. my gripe isn’t with not seeing the missile as much as the fact that it’s apparently not even being guided by the host F-4, something which is apparently totally impossible. it should fall into the ocean.
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in the 1st ACMI indicates that the launching plane maintained lock on him the whole time.
2nd one same thing.
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That’s what I’m seeing too. neither of them beamed the tracking AC for any length of time, they gave a perfect top and belly view to the F4 while doing some radical manoeuvres that bleed off speed and kept them in the same volume of space, sitting ducks.
Sorry but that’s a good example of what not to do.PS: The F4s were in the RWR blind spots, that’s why they assumed a lost track.
And “those missiles were totally silent for 90% of their flight” their SARH they don’t make any noise.
OK, two basic options, if they fire at max range then put the shooter on your 3 or 9 o’clock (your wings level gives a smaller CSA then belly or top view. They are Doppler effect radars so a 3/9 aspect makes you a return to be ignored.)
Second option, take a shot, play chicken, if they turn out first you win.
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I have been hit and downed by AA10A a few times when the launching aircraft has turned away and is on fire. Keeps me on my toes
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That’s what I’m seeing too. neither of them beamed the tracking AC for any length of time, they gave a perfect top and belly view to the F4 while doing some radical manoeuvres that bleed off speed and kept them in the same volume of space, sitting ducks.
Sorry but that’s a good example of what not to do.PS: The F4s were in the RWR blind spots, that’s why they assumed a lost track.
there is no blind spot, that’s horse shit. i’ve been shot from directly under me and above me before and got a perfect launch warning.
blind spot test: get an adder on you and do a split S. does the adder at any point disappear? no.
there is no blind spot and in like hundreds of hours of flying there’s been absolutely no indication of one.
And “those missiles were totally silent for 90% of their flight” their SARH they don’t make any noise.
OK, two basic options, if they fire at max range then put the shooter on your 3 or 9 o’clock (your wings level gives a smaller CSA then belly or top view. They are Doppler effect radars so a 3/9 aspect makes you a return to be ignored.)
Second option, take a shot, play chicken, if they turn out first you win.
there is no blind spot, that’s horse shit. i’ve been shot from directly under me and above me before and got a perfect launch warning.
blind spot test: get an adder on you and do a split S. does the adder at any point disappear? no.
there is no blind spot and in like hundreds of hours of flying there’s been absolutely no indication of one.
either it’s so vanishingly small as to basically not exist (by the way, if the blind spot is true it means i would pick it up again when i was nose on, which i WAS for about 5 seconds!)
i know basic missile evasion, and i know how to beam. talking down to me like i’m raw is ridiculous.
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i know basic missile evasion, and i know how to beam. talking down to me like i’m raw is ridiculous.
Calm down….
Maybe there is a bug here (and I’m not convinced there is), maybe not. BUT : Real Life is not “bug-free” either.
A RWR is certainly not a magic tool : you have “false positive” (ie : alarms when you are not shot at), “false negative” (no alarm when they should be one). So take the limitation of Falcon as RL pilots deal with the limitations in their software.
Anyway, short of a real repro procedure to exactly spot the bug, guys, there is really not much to say except insignificant chatter (and I’m being polite).