AIM-7M sparrow & the RWR
-
Id love to read the RMD and IRMD sections of the AFTTP 3-1, but until those get released (likely the 15th of never), you cannot say what is and is not operational parameters.
Who said that things like missile defense, ranges, speeds or game changing maneuvers etc etc are to be found in the 3-1? You are overestimating the document and veering into “state intelligence” data territory.
-
Im sure you are not deliberately attacking the non relevant parts of my comments to draw attention away from the relevant parts, I-Hawk…?
Be sure that I’m not…
Out of interest, how do you know that flying 720 knots and diving for the deck is not real operational missile defence?
I didn’t said that I know, I was just saying that I don’t want to see an example where the target AC is ALREADY flying full burner in order to be able to execute this maneuver fast enough and sharp enough to defeat the missile… that’s what I mean “real” mission parameters… how do you fly in campaigns? how often you are getting past 600 knots? not much, because it’s wasting too much fuel right? so you usually fly ~330-380 knots with CATI config and ~20K right? that’s what I mean.
-
Id been assuming (apparently incorrectly) that the AEM was a section of the 3-1.
As far as game changing maneuvers go, the tactics manuals would be exactly where I would expect to find them… All pointless information to me anyway, as my chances of getting my hands on one are likely less than zero.
how do you fly in campaigns? how often you are getting past 600 knots? not much, because it’s wasting too much fuel right? so you usually fly ~330-380 knots with CATI config and ~20K right? that’s what I mean.
Well, in fairness thats how you fly most of the time, but if you are targeted and sorted on a hot target, you will be going much faster…
-
This post is deleted! -
Just typical bull****. Our missile cannot be outmanouvered, they are literally immune to jam, etc. Just typical and usual funny comments. Every weapon systems have their own limitations…
Ok … so on diferent forum and not here then.
Every weapon systems have their own limitations…
Absolutely. But of course, confiedntial… and we are not interested in confiential stuffs here at BMS.
-
Only a famous Dev quote can save us from this morass…
/quote It’s not a “bug”, it’s a FEATURE…! /unquote
Hope this helps.
Arapr0n.
-
why nobody commented these posted ACMIs?
I did not find anything interresting except perhaps missing support “radar line”. I did not see missile drop + relock, rather usuall missile trajectories and quite bad pilot maneuvering. I mean hard brake and imediate turn back to missile collision course…BTW its something I want to make for 2 years - set SARH as ARH (but with just few feet missile radar range) to achive relocking R-24R (with relatively weak MiG-23 redar). But I did not find time to test.
-
why nobody commented these posted ACMIs?
Maybe just because many ppl were working or sleeping and didn’t had time/opportunity to download and what the ACMIs yet.
-
u are right, since I dont smoke anymore, this forum is my procrastinating pause at work….
-
u are right, since I dont smoke anymore, this forum is my procrastinating pause at work….
… almost the same, except that I still smoke. (not too much)
-
why nobody commented these posted ACMIs?
I did not find anything interresting except perhaps missing support “radar line”. I did not see missile drop + relock, rather usuall missile trajectories and quite bad pilot maneuvering. I mean hard brake and imediate turn back to missile collision course…BTW its something I want to make for 2 years - set SARH as ARH (but with just few feet missile radar range) to achive relocking R-24R (with relatively weak MiG-23 redar). But I did not find time to test.
the pertinent part being the fact that those missiles were totally silent for 90% of their flight. he does a hard turn into the missile path because a SARH has gone totally silent and it’s host plane isn’t even on RWR any more.
please read the post before you start making snide comments about maneuvering. thanks.
and tbh if the RWR had blind spots i’d be fine with it. the plane clearly rolls through pretty much every approach. he goes from nose on to belly on to nose again and it’s still totally silent. effectively it means that if you are fired upon you have to roll the dice and figure out if it’s a bugged missile. going kinetic defensive (IE, this shit isn’t going to hit me because i’m heading for the deck at 600~ knots) effectively means you’ve lost the engagement because by sparrow WEZ you’re already 5 seconds from fox 2 range. those things will just follow you and fox2 and there’s nothing you can do about it. because you have to assume (just like AA-12) that you’ve been fired at and you can’t see it. i don’t know if this happens to players, but if it doesn’t it’s a huge and annoying advantage for the AI over sparrow-armed players.
note: at least the AA-12 doesn’t sidestep the laws of physics. if it’s terminal on you you can see it. if you screw up you’re probably dead anyway but it’s not a totally passive missile that’s supposed to be anything but passive. my gripe isn’t with not seeing the missile as much as the fact that it’s apparently not even being guided by the host F-4, something which is apparently totally impossible. it should fall into the ocean.
-
in the 1st ACMI indicates that the launching plane maintained lock on him the whole time.
2nd one same thing.
-
That’s what I’m seeing too. neither of them beamed the tracking AC for any length of time, they gave a perfect top and belly view to the F4 while doing some radical manoeuvres that bleed off speed and kept them in the same volume of space, sitting ducks.
Sorry but that’s a good example of what not to do.PS: The F4s were in the RWR blind spots, that’s why they assumed a lost track.
And “those missiles were totally silent for 90% of their flight” their SARH they don’t make any noise.
OK, two basic options, if they fire at max range then put the shooter on your 3 or 9 o’clock (your wings level gives a smaller CSA then belly or top view. They are Doppler effect radars so a 3/9 aspect makes you a return to be ignored.)
Second option, take a shot, play chicken, if they turn out first you win.
-
I have been hit and downed by AA10A a few times when the launching aircraft has turned away and is on fire. Keeps me on my toes
-
That’s what I’m seeing too. neither of them beamed the tracking AC for any length of time, they gave a perfect top and belly view to the F4 while doing some radical manoeuvres that bleed off speed and kept them in the same volume of space, sitting ducks.
Sorry but that’s a good example of what not to do.PS: The F4s were in the RWR blind spots, that’s why they assumed a lost track.
there is no blind spot, that’s horse shit. i’ve been shot from directly under me and above me before and got a perfect launch warning.
blind spot test: get an adder on you and do a split S. does the adder at any point disappear? no.
there is no blind spot and in like hundreds of hours of flying there’s been absolutely no indication of one.
And “those missiles were totally silent for 90% of their flight” their SARH they don’t make any noise.
OK, two basic options, if they fire at max range then put the shooter on your 3 or 9 o’clock (your wings level gives a smaller CSA then belly or top view. They are Doppler effect radars so a 3/9 aspect makes you a return to be ignored.)
Second option, take a shot, play chicken, if they turn out first you win.
there is no blind spot, that’s horse shit. i’ve been shot from directly under me and above me before and got a perfect launch warning.
blind spot test: get an adder on you and do a split S. does the adder at any point disappear? no.
there is no blind spot and in like hundreds of hours of flying there’s been absolutely no indication of one.
either it’s so vanishingly small as to basically not exist (by the way, if the blind spot is true it means i would pick it up again when i was nose on, which i WAS for about 5 seconds!)
i know basic missile evasion, and i know how to beam. talking down to me like i’m raw is ridiculous.
-
i know basic missile evasion, and i know how to beam. talking down to me like i’m raw is ridiculous.
Calm down….
Maybe there is a bug here (and I’m not convinced there is), maybe not. BUT : Real Life is not “bug-free” either.
A RWR is certainly not a magic tool : you have “false positive” (ie : alarms when you are not shot at), “false negative” (no alarm when they should be one). So take the limitation of Falcon as RL pilots deal with the limitations in their software.
Anyway, short of a real repro procedure to exactly spot the bug, guys, there is really not much to say except insignificant chatter (and I’m being polite).
-
in real life missiles do not start disobeying their fundamental principles on a whim.
if it’s a SARH missile, it should behave like a SARH missile, not turn into an invisible adder.
unless the B52 does not have a blind spot and this thing does, then maybe. just so you know, i’m not mad. we’re going to give a go at testing this the next time we get together and see if we can reproduce it. just so more comes of this thread than “i am mad, PLS FIX”
still though, the RWR is actually a magic tool in the game. it functions flawlessly, so i’m extremely doubtful that this is a problem or modelling quirk of the RWR, rather than what it seems to be, which is a definite flaw in SARH missile modelling.
like i said in the OP, i have been fired upon before by an SA-6, which i then broke by travelling over a hill and ducking. it continued tracking on me, totally silently (and this isn’t a blind spot, this is my dead 5 o’clock) for about 20s, after which it hit me. it was not a dead missile. it was maneuvering against me even after i was behind 2~ hills from the radar.
this is not really a new thing in my experience, and it appears to affect all non-ARH missiles.
-
alright, quick testing. there is no blind spot on the bottom of the plane. there is one on the top. if you are fired upon by a sparrow, do a split S, then climb back to your original altitude, then go straight nose up, the F-4 and sparrow will disappear once the top of your plane is pointing straight at them.
i still contend that this never happened in the above example. also, i can repro the RWRless sparrow pretty easily.
top plane blind spot proof: where did he go ?
oh there he is:
no launch warning sparrow (i have an ACMI too):
cockpit at the time
missile maneuvering against me:
second missile fired by F-4E
RWR once second missile fired by F-4E.
i think it may actually be the RWR. questions to answer: are F4s supposed to be able to guide multiple sparrows? they frequently do, i’ve seen as many as 3. if not, that’s broke but i’m not sure if that’s F-4s only or if MIG-23s can do it too.
oh and sorry if those pictures are too big. i can link offsite if they’re annoying, i wasn’t sure how to limit image size.
-
This post is deleted! -
after more tests it seems that there may be a blind spot on the belly, however it’s very narrow. 90% of launches will endure through a direct nose-on split S. however, if they are slightly to the side of your nose you will lose them pretty often. 1/2 o’clock and 10/11 o’clock seem to be OK for the blind spot. after a reasonable amount of testing i’ve never lost a contact during a split or turn away.
split S disappearing launches (reproed twice in a row)
alright. i’m going to keep working on the trackless sparrow hardlock, but there is a possible bug on the RWR: if you split S or do a straight climb and you hit the blind spot (wherever the hell it is) if you pull out of that orientation you will have a missile tracking on you with no hardlock tone (?) or launch warning. you will only get another one if they fire a second sparrow. is that a bug? i mean, it seems reasonable that once the RWR effectively sees you being hardlocked and shot once you pull out of blind, that it would warn you again. who knows.
i’m going to go ahead and keep testing and find the blind spots, but it seems to be directly above the plane and then in weird angles underneath you. like i said, you can split -S as long as they are on your nose with pretty decent assurance that you won’t lose them. slightly off-nose though and it seems to do it pretty regularly.
i’m going to keep at it and give you guys some more detailed stuff, this is just my first scrape at it.
sorry for getting mad, i believe in the blind spot now. even though i can’t nail down exactly where it is.
oh also, sometimes it does this: which makes almost no sense but WHATEVER
ACMI of a Split-S where they disappear in the blind spot: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/70442627/TAPE0016.vhs
one where they don’t:https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/70442627/TAPE0014.vhs