Fragging Missions in 4.34
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The mechanics for coordinating T/O(take-off) time & TOT(time over target) for multiple flights have changed in 4.34
May I ask why all waypoints’ TAS’ are locked by default now?
This throws a wrench in our old method.
What we used to do:
-make sure all waypoint speeds were unlocked
-lock both T/O time and TOT
-then various waypoint positions could be moved around & TOT could be adjusted freely
-all the speeds/times of waypoints in between would automatically adjust to compensateThis simply doesn’t work in 4.34. The speeds & times don’t change, waypoints turn red.
So how to frag a big package, control all the take-off times and TOT’s…?
I leave all the TAS’ locked, organize the TOT’s, then clean up the take off times indirectly, using holding points at steer 3.
Any other ideas? -
This is a major issue for easy and flexible fragging. The elegant and simple method we have been teaching for years is now not possible. I hope we can revert this behavior if possible.
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May I ask why all waypoints’ TAS’ are locked by default now?
Because a mission HAS to be planned in TAS … not in CAS.
-lock both T/O time and TOT
This is basically a “wrong” method thought/imposed by an initial bad implementation for years.
Per RL rule, speed has to “be constant”. Then, only only TRP has to be defined (usually the push).Some habits to change, nothings more … several advantages to this:
- No need to unlock all WPT’s speed to be able to modify altitude without timing modification.
- To move WPT, simply unlock all Speed (double right click on one of the Speed lock lock/unlock all WTP’s).
- Avoid issue on Hold time deltas.
- Once a TAS is chosen, is remains constant by default (this is how a COMAO has to be planed)
… - CAS in now only indicative and shows the “aero margin” (manoeuvrability) you have depending on altitude set (cruise celling).
- Any modifications of altitude (flight profile) do not affect timings and/or speed. You can do it anytime wihtout the need of unlocking WPTs.
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I know it is a bit confusing because of many years of habits. But this should have to made like this from the beginning.
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Because a mission HAS to be planned in TAS … not in CAS.
This is basically a “wrong” method thought/imposed by an initial bad implementation for years.
Per RL rule, speed has to “be constant”. Then, only only TRP has to be defined (usually the push).Some habits to change, nothings more … several advantages to this:
- No need to unlock all WPT’s speed to be able to modify altitude without timing modification.
- To move WPT, simply unlock all Speed (double right click on one of the Speed lock lock/unlock all WTP’s).
- Avoid issue on Hold time deltas.
- Once a TAS is chosen, is remains constant by default (this is how a COMAO has to be planed)
… - CAS in now only indicative and shows the “aero margin” you have depending on altitude set (cruise celling).
- Any modifications of altitude (flight profile) do not affect timing and/or speed. You can so it anytime wihtout the need of unlocking WPTs.
can you plz upload a video of showing a quick reliable way to have as follows:
STRIKE - TOT
ESCORT - TOT - 2
SEAD - TOT - 4With manageable airspeeds?
Previously we would set initial TOT based on a guesstimate and then adjust TOT until airspeeds were manageable, and then rolex the whole package. Was a very fast, predictable and realistic way to setup a complex package.
We are hoping to have a similar methodology as here:
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So how to frag a big package, control all the take-off times and TOT’s…?
I leave all the TAS’ locked, organize the TOT’s, then clean up the take off times indirectly, using holding points at steer 3.
Any other ideas?Correct. This is the proper way.
T/O time is not “chosen” per say. It is given by TRP, distance, and speed.
If you really (for some reasons) chose a given T/O time, the way to change it should now be by acting on the Hold buffer.
And this is a revolution since now … no matter if there are a lot of flight taking off a the same time … or is the runway is congested. If for any reason, a/c take off late … no prob as long as Holding time margin allows to manage the delay. -
… simply unlock all Speed (… right click on one of the Speed lock lock/unlock all WTP’s)…
I think that’s the crucial change. So just right click on both lock symbols on any STP and all waypoints are unlocked. Then choose e.g. Takeoff or Target to lock and adjust or move what you like.
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can you plz upload a video of showing a quick reliable way to have as follows:
STRIKE - TOT
ESCORT - TOT - 2
SEAD - TOT - 4With manageable airspeeds?
Will try to do it when time permit … but I have a lot of work on the future version already. And if I can be prompt, the stuff I am working on could even be part of first 4.34 update.
In two words:
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Create the main flight.
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Define a TAS for each leg if you are not happy with the default one.
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Define your desired track.
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Lock the Push time (or TOT if you want it to be your TRP for any tactical reason)
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Change altitude profile if you are not happy with default one.
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If you want to impose a different T/O time, change the Hold time, or alter the distance between Hold and T/O.
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Add other flights
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Same procedures
For common fighters … good habits is to always ensure at least a 310KTAS from T/O to Hold, between 360 and 420KTAS between Hold and Push … 420 or 540 from Push to TGT … 480 or 540 on egress.
As standard, I recommend not less that 4min Hold, 6 to 8 in nominal, or more depending on needs (I.e. the amount of a/c in the package departing from the same airbase of if AAR is planned before Package join-up in the Hold … etc …) -
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@Nick:
I think that’s the crucial change. So just right click on both lock symbols on any STP and all waypoints are unlocked. Then choose e.g. Takeoff or Target to lock and adjust or move what you like.
Btw, this “feature” is not new.
It’s in the code since the beginning. It simply has never been properly documented somewhere. -
Great find BTW! REALLY useful. (would be nice if we could add a “click” sound for it … if possible different form the standard one)
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DJ do not’forgrt that U1 will include a fix for this fragging , I mean to make it easier
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DJ do not’forgrt that U1 will include a fix for this fragging , I mean to make it easier
I missed it. I do not really know/remember what you are talking about exactly. Will discuss it on TS.
EDIT: You mean the fix about inconsistency T/O relative to TOT on Package window right?
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I missed it. I do not really know/remember what you are talking about exactly. Will discuss it on TS.
EDIT: You mean the fix about inconsistency T/O relative to TOT on Package window right?
Yes
Includes also a fix that makes TOT separation automatically correct
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default fragging timing appears to have some issues. i create a strike, ok. create SEAD, it arrives 4 minues AFTER strike. create escort, it TAKES OFF at strike’s TOT.
i have to heavily edit everything to get it all working.
Dee-Jay says to add other flights after editing the first flight’s profile. how do i do this and keep them a part of the same package?
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default fragging timing appears to have some issues. i create a strike, ok. create SEAD, it arrives 4 minues AFTER strike. create escort, it TAKES OFF at strike’s TOT.
i have to heavily edit everything to get it all working.
Dee-Jay says to add other flights after editing the first flight’s profile. how do i do this and keep them a part of the same package?
Yes this is the fix I was talking about
Hopefully the automatic creation of packages in campaign is OK
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gotcha. as long as you are aware. will make due until then.
FYI for others: was using TOT fragging when this happened. i flew my first mission using Takeoff time. seemed ok. try that and make smaller tweaks?
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can you plz upload a video of showing a quick reliable way to have as follows:
STRIKE - TOT
ESCORT - TOT - 2
SEAD - TOT - 4With manageable airspeeds?
Previously we would set initial TOT based on a guesstimate and then adjust TOT until airspeeds were manageable, and then rolex the whole package. Was a very fast, predictable and realistic way to setup a complex package.
what i’ve figured out:
1. when fragging, LOCK TAKEOFF TIME, TIME ON TARGET seems bugged.
2. once fragging is complete, UNLOCK steerpoint 1 TIME for all flights in flight planner.
3. modify TOT for all flights as desired, all other waypoints will shift to reflect your change with steer 1 unlocked.
4. change any enroute waypoint speeds.
5. modify/remove steerpoint 3 hold and altitude separation (its useful once you get used to it, though 6 minutes is a little long)
-5a. if you intend to hold at 3, lock it before the last step.
6. ALWAYS LAST: modify steer 1 takeoff time for all flights. this should lock them, again.with the new steer 3 hold, i can mess around with the takeoff times a lot more. i recommend allowing the heaviest aircraft to take off first. i.e. STRIKE, SEAD, ESCORT. this makes it so the heavy aircraft don’t have to rush to the push point. once they reach the hold, they will leave at the right time to make TOT. This is probably a lot more work than you were looking for, but once you get used to it you can do it in around 3-5 minutes.
edit: after reading through, i realized you can do it quick-and-dirty with just steps 1 through 3. the rest is optional.
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(its useful once you get used to it, though 6 minutes is a little long)
6min is the perfect average value. IRL you have to perform the check in, fence in, get the last picture … etc … it could takes some times.) so 6min is not too much and give a reasonable time buffer for contingency on departures.