AIM-7M sparrow & the RWR

[Cik]

so, these things are totally SARH right? no terminal guidance of their own? i’ve gotten hit by multiple AIM-7s that seem to go ballistic and then hit me anyway much later, long after the missile ‘drops’ that is, disappears off RWR with no launch illumination. some of them even without the guiding aircraft even looking at me, as indicated by no ^4 on the RWR.

are there blind zones on this thing? does the sparrow have some sort of terminal (non-radar? guidance?) is the game broke

pls help

as far as i know you have to be hardlock until hit but the enemy seems to ignore this half the time

what

it seriously ruins non-AIM-120 BVR due to how ambiguous your missile incoming warnings are. you have zero idea if your chaff has worked and it’s dropped the missile, as it sometimes does or if it’s still invisibly seeking at you.

[Dee-Jay]

Stock install? No Mod?

ACMIs and mission files please.

[A.S]

@Cik:

on the RWR.

are there blind zones on this thing? does the sparrow have some sort of terminal (non-radar? guidance?) is the game broke

pls help

Yes! 60° top and bottom cone for the F-16

[Cik]

where are they because i’ve been hit from at least 3 radically different o’clocks. geez.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/23718048/TAPE0016.vhs

first exhibit, watch snake22. after he begins a split-S and chaffs, the missile drops immediately, and for most of that there is no ^4 on the RWR for 90% of the missile’s flight. look at his behavior and you can clearly see that the missile drops. 15~ seconds later, the missile slams directly into him. whether it was tracking the whole way or only at the end i have no idea.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/23718048/TAPE0010.vhs

exhibit 2, pay attention to my wingman angrybaker who again executes a split-S and chaffs. he turns in again once the missile goes dead, which it does immediately. he then gets hit by both(!) missiles from the same plane.

can you even TWS AIM-7s?

Stock install? No Mod?

ACMIs and mission files please.

uh i guess it’s battle for sinai modern, the AIM-7m.

A.S. can confirm or deny that they’ve modded it i think.

i’ve been hit by ‘passive’ russian SAMs, too. i think something might be mucked up within the SARH missile code or something.

[Cik]

@A.S:

Yes! 60° top and bottom cone for the F-16

http://img.ie/images/ugl0n_thumb.jpg

is it modelled? shouldn’t the LAUNCH button illuminate once you’re out of the blind spot?

[A.S]

Yes it it.

Did you press the “Handoff” on your RWR …just curious?

[Cik]

mode:semi handoff is clicked (that is, lighted on both sides)

counter was heard as normal.

i reinstalled the game like 2 days ago, so i doubt it’s file corruption etc.

this has also happened a few times to me before i reinstalled it, once from an SA-6 and once from an SA-2.

[Dee-Jay]

An RWR is not a perfect tool.

You can’t rely on an RWR alarm to BE SURE that you were, was or will be fired at. Reversal is also true … you can have a LAUNCH alarm triggered by a missile fired at your wingman. It is usually a biased indication of the reality need to be interpreted with cautious.

In the game, this is no necessarily modeled, but you can consider those “glitches” as a “positive false”

[Cik]

dee-jay pls. that’s fine i mean i can adapt my tactics but if gam is bugged pls fix gam.

thx i love u

oh by the way are they supposed to be able to launch 2 sparrows at once i thought that was one of the chief downsides pls fix.

[molnibalage]

As Dee-Jay said the RWR is BMS4 - and every other jet sim…. - is way over modeled…

In BMS4 - and older Falcon versions too - sometimes you do not get warning even a SAM or AAM tracks you and you still under STT lock from an opponent. This is not general but mostly happens in case the guidane last long and you are the edge of range. I do not know why.

[molnibalage]

@Cik:

dee-jay pls. that’s fine i mean i can adapt my tactics but if gam is bugged pls fix gam.

thx i love u

What you mention is a very rare bug, the ARH bug is much more serious, to me it is totally gamebreaking….

[A.S]

@molnibalage:

What you mention is a very rare bug, the ARH bug is much more serious, to me it is totally gamebreaking….

Because in your opinion chaffs are “total tracking defeating” countermeasures for ARHs (which they are not btw.).

It is already way to easy to “spoof” ARHs in BMS and with “wunderwaffe” chaffs it would be a real game-breaker. This is not LockOn where a few dropped chaffs eliminate every Fox-3 missile threat.

So what do chaffs than do in BMS, right? Well in combination with jammers they deny for example early burn-through ability of the bandits radar combined a little probabilty to irritate terminal ARHs aswell.

But if you think that chaffs will make a ARHs (or Aim-120 in this case) …drop lock from target and “re-lock” the chaffs…then you have it wrong my friend

[molnibalage]

Chaffs has 0 effect on ARHs currently even if you combine with ECM + beming + ground clutter. Period. Duing AF in RL many AIM-120s were defeated by only beaming, ground clutter + chaff by MiG-29s… ARHs are not holy weapons in RL especially older ones…

Also what you should not forget this is still a game, holy weapons are not tolerated by me in any game. A whole missile category which is totally immune to chaff and jam from my aspect is a bad joke, this is not abstraction this ********. You should not forget that AIM-54 is also modeled as AIM-120 and all ARH missiles - regardless it is SAM or AAM shares on the same modeling. So anything from a late '60s and first ARH and the most advanced AIM-120C-7 has the same level of ECCM denial which a bad joke as abstraction…

The main reason why I selected '80s and early '90s because of this ARH modeling bug. I’m not saying that ARH should be very vulnerable to chaff - it is impossbile to set well because of the chaff distance modifier which in built in the code at least since RP5 - but total immunity is simply a bad joke to me…

[A.S]

@molnibalage:

Chaffs has 0 effect on ARHs currently even if you combine with ECM + beming + ground clutter. Period.

On ARHs maybe, but not on enemy RADARS …that´s my whole point. I don´t know how you use them and what kind of chaff resistance reasearch you made, but i
implement them succussfully in BMS.

PS: 4.33 might improve thinks maybe towards your liking…

[molnibalage]

I do not understand what you implemented.

Airborne and advanced double digit SAM radars are much more powerful and capable stuff than small ARH onboard radars and they can be (easily in some cases) defeated by combo what I listed but totally inferior and smaller missile onboard radars are immune…? This is more than silly…

[Ahmed]

There seems to be a glitch with beam riders in sim, as I got that as well plenty of times with SAMs.

@Dee-Jay:

In the game, this is no necessarily modeled, but you can consider those “glitches” as a “positive false”

And that’s why I love this glitch. It keeps me having to scan visually even after the RWR track disappears!

[Cik]

i don’t know if you have supervision or something but once the missile starts drifting it’s impossible to see unless it’s about 1s outside your cockpit, and that’s way too late to change your course or maneuver.

[I-Hawk]

Molni, BMS is being tested all the time by RL Viper drivers, and we hadn’t heard anything about AIM-120s being over modeled.

You all the time like to think that missiles are so easily spoofed but that’s not the case… i don’t know which world you think of but at nowadays era with missiles that do all kind of stuff like LOAL 360 shots, DL shots, with crazy maneuverability, the chances to avoid a modern missile are indeed very low.

There is already a “trick” to defeat the AIM-120 in BMS no? although it probably doesn’t worth much because real efficient shot is done inside NEZ, and I want to see someone defeat a clean shot of AIM-120 when fired well inside NEZ range and not aware of the time that the missile was fired.

[Eagle-Eye]

@I-Hawk:

Molni, BMS is being tested all the time by RL Viper drivers, and we hadn’t heard anything about AIM-120s being over modeled.

I thank the RL Viper drivers for their input, as I’m sure this makes BMS better, but I’m also fairly sure that they won’t let the BMS team simulate the full extent of real life problems of whatever weapon they can employ…

I don’t know where Molni got his information, nor do I have any of my own, so I can’t really comment on him, but I do know anyone who wants to can download BMS for free and use it to see how the F-16 operates. If the real AIM-120C would hit less than 37% (just a random number) of the targets it’s fired at due to connection bugs between shooter and missile (just a random reason), you wouldn’t want that information spread out, especially if the PR department wants any hostile force to believe that it’s pretty much a “one-shot-one-kill” missile that they want to avoid at all costs. The same Viper drivers that give you valuable feedback on whatever system will (or at least should) not tell you about such faults, as it may some day save their life if the enemy believes their opponent is carrying “super-weapons”.

BMS can definitely aim to be the most realistic sim out there, but because of said reason and it focusing mainly/solely on the F-16, it will always be (slightly) biased in favour of western aircraft. Does not necessarily need to be a problem, but should be something to be aware of when building and flying the sim.

[Fenrir]

Here is a off, on page 25 there is statistics of aim-120a &c fired between -92-99.

http://www.mossekongen.no/downloads/2008_RAND_Pacific_View_Air_Combat_Briefing.pdf

Don’t know about references but interesting.
There is also some figures on aim-9m for example, 48 fired and 11kills during DS.

Cheers