Dealing with SA-10 and proper MK20 employment
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Hello, I have two questions.
What’s your tactics for destroying SA-10? Its kill range is way past the distance at which HARM can be used and as I understand you need to constantly troll SA-10’s radar, so it stays active? At long distances it can be deadly because SA-10 missile will have no visible trail and at short distances there may not be a chance to hide in time. Does silencing your radar help with SA-10? Do you need to keep SA-10 active on you through the duration for HARM to reach it?
And how to employ MK20 right? Using them with CCIP seems pretty fun at first, until you realize that like nearly every column has at least some kind of SHORAD, while CCRP seems to be imprecise from the “safe” height/distance (at least in relation to SHORAD), especially versus a moving column. I know that one way of doing it is going up to 25k feet or so and then doing a very steep dive, releasing rockeyes before you go below SHORAD envelope - but that is very tricky since it quickly sheds altitude and there may not be enough time to properly aim and pull out without damaging a plane before it’s not safe anymore, not to mention that it’s an absolute no go in poor weather.
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Popup at 20-30 miles, use HARM. Once missile is off the rail, no support is needed - just go defensive.
mk20:
CCRP or DTOS lock up the column at distance. Fly direcly over it at 20-25k. WHen the CCRP loft cue appears, roll inverted and fly into the fall line/td box. Once visually ID’d switch to CCIP and start to pull up while pickling down the line. Pull up smoothly so that you are above 12-14k on the rejoin. See this video:
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Get out your weed eater. Stay below 200 ft. AGL until you are in range. Pop up, launch HARM, hit the deck, and egress out at below 200 ft. until you are safely out of range. Easiest w/ HTS, But doable w/ HAS mode.
Use terrain to mask your ship from SA-10 radar. Some will say this is not effective, but do it anyway.
Search the forums…this has been discussed at great length on this website.
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. Some will say this is not effective, but do it anyway.
.One night I decided to experiment while flying the Maverick training mission. When flying at the normal (for that mission) altitude of <2k, no SA-10 indication on the RWR. Then I went up to 3500 and almost instantly got the indication. The next time I flew it I did the same thing, and got the same result.
All in all, IMHO,I agree with Schnidrman. -
…doesn’t BMS model MANPADs?
FAF used take me out with MANPADs on a previously regular basis…until I learned not to fly that low.
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…doesn’t BMS model MANPADs?
FAF used take me out with MANPADs on a previously regular basis…until I learned not to fly that low.
I’d rather take my chances with MANPADS than the SA-10. At 150-200 ft. they are not very likely to hit you as you should be moving along at a pretty good clip. Careful mission planning is also paramount. I wouldn’t plan my flight path to go anywhere near active air defenses. Of course you may overfly a unit not showing on the 2D map, but there is always a risk involved in SEAD/DEAD.
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…doesn’t BMS model MANPADs?
FAF used take me out with MANPADs on a previously regular basis…until I learned not to fly that low.
To be honest, I’m not sure how MANPADS are modeled in BMS. Trying to be as RL as possible, I hold altitude unless defending requires otherwise.
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I’d rather take my chances with MANPADS than the SA-10. At 150-200 ft. they are not very likely to hit you as you should be moving along at a pretty good clip. Careful mission planning is also paramount. I wouldn’t plan my flight path to go anywhere near active air defenses. Of course you may overfly a unit not showing on the 2D map, but there is always a risk involved in SEAD/DEAD.
I like to alter tasking for the Training Missions in FAF…the AiM-9 mission is the one I go to to “relax” and just shoot something (I also practice straffing the airfield, fuel management, etc.). I found out the hard way after sorting the bomber until last that if I let him drag me too far off my route and fly low that I will get KIA’d by a MANPAD every time when over the higher terrain. So I’ve learned stay in the mids in unfamiliar territory and let my RWR tell me when I’m in trouble. I can turn around given enough heads up. Problem with MANPADs is they don’t show on the RWR…they just kill you. I never seem to encounter AAA, though…
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To be honest, I’m not sure how MANPADS are modeled in BMS. Trying to be as RL as possible, I hold altitude unless defending requires otherwise.
Ditto.
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I seem to be able to kill SA-10s and Patriots easy with the HARM, just shoot from 20,000ft+ and you can get 50-60nm range, if you go closer they get more dangerous. They might shoot but turn around the missile doesn’t catch you. HARM is fire and forget. If they keep their radar off go low like it says above.
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At least HARM is an option for you. BfB and BfS, was a bit of fun taking out SA-10s with the Shrike.
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At least HARM is an option for you. BfB and BfS, was a bit of fun taking out SA-10s with the Shrike.
Heck, Blu, if you want real fun go for one with a GBU-54. Yeesh. That wasn’t pretty.
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Thanks guys, I’m trying out these suggestions.
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…also - MK20s are generally employed in a level release at altitude - altitude and Q/M/I determine the bomblet density on target…so, if you’re actually going to go hunting SA-10s…which I wouldn’t…I’d choose another weapon.
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Just make it clear (it is mentioned in previous posts) : the agm-88 can be used to engage the SA-10 without any issues. Somehow subject keeps popping up.
So if you want to use another weapon that’s fine but do not do it because you think the Harm is unsuitable. It is the safest choice.
And of course the harm is not available on all blocks but that’s another discussion -
IThey might shoot but turn around the missile doesn’t catch you.
I’m new to BMS. I’ve been playing a Vet KTO Tiger Spirit. Very early on I noticed that there were a lot of SA-10s in this campaign. I sort of took it upon myself to be the squadron’s dedicated Flap Lid inspector. One of the reasons is that when the ATO frags a SEAD or DEAD mission, it sets the IP too close to the target, negating the stand-off capability of the AI’s HARMs. This leads to losses and I began fragging these missions for myself.
I’ve taken out eight in this campaign, but have been shot down by the SA-10 I was attacking three times. I’ve been going high, lobbing HARMs from 45-50 miles. In the quote above, I agree, the missile can be dragged. But the question is how do you know when it launches without jabbing the “7” key? I don’t want to play that way, so am I missing something that gives you launch warning on a SA-10?
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I’m new to BMS. … so am I missing something that gives you launch warning on a SA-10?
DBond, Firstly, welcome to BMS! To answer your question, all I can say is if I’m engaging a SA-10 and get any kind of lock warning on the RWR, I am actively defending against it(even without launch warning).
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I’m new to BMS. I’ve been playing a Vet KTO Tiger Spirit. Very early on I noticed that there were a lot of SA-10s in this campaign. I sort of took it upon myself to be the squadron’s dedicated Flap Lid inspector. One of the reasons is that when the ATO frags a SEAD or DEAD mission, it sets the IP too close to the target, negating the stand-off capability of the AI’s HARMs. This leads to losses and I began fragging these missions for myself.
I’ve taken out eight in this campaign, but have been shot down by the SA-10 I was attacking three times. I’ve been going high, lobbing HARMs from 45-50 miles. In the quote above, I agree, the missile can be dragged. But the question is how do you know when it launches without jabbing the “7” key? I don’t want to play that way, so am I missing something that gives you launch warning on a SA-10?
I got a hit on an SA-10 yesterday from 59nm 26,000ft. Shoot at max range then do a split S and fly away, assume he will shoot. 45nm is too close. Patriot and SA-10 are probably the best sam systems in the world they might hit you from time to time if you go too close.
In DCS I can take both out with the MiG-29 with guns and rockets flying at 10m… lol Haven’t tried that in BMS 4.33 yet though.Just add that I put a waypoint on the sam so I know the exact range even without the HTP(harm pod).
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Thanks for the welcome and thanks to both of you for the replies. So I see, you are dragging the incoming since you fly as though you assume one is inbound. But the thing is at what point does your HARM out-acquire the SA-10? I’m not in front of the sim at the mo, but generally I am firing from 45-50 miles at 25,000 to 30,000 feet. Based on my shootdowns, it’s clear the SAM was inbound before I was in range. And obviously you can’t fire at a target you are also attempting to drag. So there must be a magic point based on your speed, altitude, distance and RCS that you can get your shot off with a very low, or non-existent chance of having one already in the air and headed your way. Because of target acquisition limitation of the Flap Lid and not because the missile can’t fly that far. Assuming F-16 here.
What about jamming? Is that effective or is the SA-10 HoJ (frequency hopping?)in BMS?
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Thanks for the welcome and thanks to both of you for the replies. So I see, you are dragging the incoming since you fly as though you assume one is inbound. But the thing is at what point does your HARM out-acquire the SA-10? I’m not in front of the sim at the mo, but generally I am firing from 45-50 miles at 25,000 to 30,000 feet. Based on my shootdowns, it’s clear the SAM was inbound before I was in range. And obviously you can’t fire at a target you are also attempting to drag. So there must be a magic point based on your speed, altitude, distance and RCS that you can get your shot off with a very low, or non-existent chance of having one already in the air and headed your way. Because of target acquisition limitation of the Flap Lid and not because the missile can’t fly that far. Assuming F-16 here.
What about jamming? Is that effective or is the SA-10 HoJ (frequency hopping?)in BMS?
First, jamming is not real effective, and gets less effective as you close.
Again, DBond, this is just MHO, but I’m shooting at 50 miles and 30K(in your scenario),hoping I survive until I get the Harm off(tried a Slam-ER once,btw), then defending big time(again, I’m assuming a SAM is in the air)
BTW, the BMS Threat Guide has this to say…
SA-10 Grumble Guidance: (Command) Flap Lid (TVM) Site: Static / Mobile
HIGH THREAT Min. Range: N/A / 500ft ECM BT Range: 35+nm
Max. Range: 50nm / 90,000ft Max Velocity (mach): 6.0
Maneuverability: MED-HIGH Chaff vulnerability: Low
Avoidance: Beam / Use terrain masking + low altitude ingress / egress
SEAD: HARM- Use low altitude ingress and terrain masking. Destroy radar before it can fire.
Characteristics: Chaff not very effective. High power radar will burn through ECM
beyond HARM range. Unit consists of self-propelled launcher vehicles, “Tin Shield” and/or
“Clam Shell” surveillance radars, “Flap Lid” guidance and command radar.
SA-13 Gopher Guidance: IR Site: