F22 Raptor Vs Euro Fighter
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ROE aside the new doctrine as of today and not the 1990s is you won’t know who is shooting at you and who is designating you either. You could be designated by a F-22 but shot at by a ship, helicopter, drone, whatever. The information being shared by 5 Gen aircraft is the game changer including existing airframes being that are being updated. As I mentioned the game has changed dramatically. As for an FM in BMS regarding the F-22 I’m sure it’s a rough guess at this point.
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What are some solid sources to read on aircraft capabilities and the subject of BFM?
http://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/docs/16v5.pdf Chapter 4 is one of my favorite references.
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http://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/docs/16v5.pdf Chapter 4 is one of my favorite references.
Too cool,thanks…Very in-depth……I kept scrolling looking for classification markings!
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Today having a ROE that states you must Vis ID is of no use if the other guys don’t have that and you just get a missile in the face. In Nam you were faced with Cannon and AA-2s so Vis ID was less of an issue. In Sidra the bad guys had Export MiGs with rear aspect missiles. Today you cant screw around with something that can employ an all aspect weapon at range. As a side note it is claimed that platforms like AWACs and 5th Gen aircraft have have a lot more ways of Identifying aircraft than traditional 4th Gen jets sensors.
Well, most 4th gen jets do not have any real ELINT capability. You have any emissions at all, its possible to narrow down what you are. If you can be narrowed down to a hostile type, thats not good for you. AWACS do have more options for IDing contacts than 4th gen jets. Of course, there is tradeoffs there. AWACS cant really tell a radar contacts altitude to more than the closest 10,000 feet, for instance. Nor can they VID.
As far as the ROE, whether it is of use is not what determines whether you have to follow it or not. The guys drafting the ROE have to work that tradeoff - balancing the possibility of shooting down something that they should not have, against the possibility that being too restrictive could put their guys in dangerous situations where they cannot employ weapons with minimum risk. If you go into contingency ops, you dont really expect clearance to employ BVR. If you go into a shooting war with China, not having that ability will get you and your squadron killed.
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Well, most 4th gen jets do not have any real ELINT capability. You have any emissions at all, its possible to narrow down what you are. If you can be narrowed down to a hostile type, thats not good for you. AWACS do have more options for IDing contacts than 4th gen jets. Of course, there is tradeoffs there. AWACS cant really tell a radar contacts altitude to more than the closest 10,000 feet, for instance. Nor can they VID.
As far as the ROE, whether it is of use is not what determines whether you have to follow it or not. The guys drafting the ROE have to work that tradeoff - balancing the possibility of shooting down something that they should not have, against the possibility that being too restrictive could put their guys in dangerous situations where they cannot employ weapons with minimum risk. If you go into contingency ops, you dont really expect clearance to employ BVR. If you go into a shooting war with China, not having that ability will get you and your squadron killed.
This short series might be of some interest
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Thanks, I’ll check it out.
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I wonder how many fighter combat vets read these forums and think, “Man these guys know nothing of what they speak” and just laugh.
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I went to Red Flag in Vegas with my squadron and the pilots said that when the Raptors were in the air no one had a chance. They said the Raptors would appear out of nowhere and get several kills before anyone knew what was going on. Then disappear and be nowhere to be found. The pilots would get this funny grin on their faces when they talked about it and all anyone could talk about was if anyone in Red Flag had took out a Raptor. Every squadron was obsessed with taking out a Raptor. The pilots laughed as if it was a joke because the Raptors were so superior. The Raptors also rarely went up.
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I went to Red Flag in Vegas with my squadron and the pilots said that when the Raptors were in the air no one had a chance. They said the Raptors would appear out of nowhere and get several kills before anyone knew what was going on. Then disappear and be nowhere to be found. The pilots would get this funny grin on their faces when they talked about it and all anyone could talk about was if anyone in Red Flag had took out a Raptor. Every squadron was obsessed with taking out a Raptor. The pilots laughed as if it was a joke because the Raptors were so superior. The Raptors also rarely went up.
“If they can bleed, we kill them”.
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guys in the Raptors be like
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“If they can bleed, we kill them”.
You have to find them first……
You can not kill what you can not see. And even by chance, you could see them (visually), you radar and weapons will have a very hard time locking on to them. Same goes for the F-35.
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You have to find them first……
Yes!
You can not kill what you can not see.
Define “see”. In what spectrum? Optical? Radar? And what bands? IR? Thermal?
There ARE solutions, but you will not hear them from the “sides” that produce those birds… Physics science is not only discover, but also alternate or hide, as necessary…
you radar and weapons will have a very hard time locking on to them. Same goes for the F-35.
Maths and geometry-dance don’t lie. Yes it is difficult, more difficult with older designs and to make all players dance the same steps, but sooner or later, some smaller items (eg a new ramjet BVR missile with twin sensor system) can make the difference.
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I’m sure if they’ve posted here about something, someone has argued with them that they’re wrong and they’ve left lol
I wonder how many fighter combat vets read these forums and think, “Man these guys know nothing of what they speak” and just laugh.
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Define “see”. In what spectrum? Optical? Radar? And what bands? IR? Thermal?
There ARE solutions, but you will not hear them from the “sides” that produce those birds… Physics science is not only discover, but also alternate or hide, as necessary…
True, but since there are many ways to see, and since we do not know the full RCS under different systems as you mentioned, defining “see” is a mute point.
Maths and geometry-dance don’t lie. Yes it is difficult, more difficult with older designs and to make all players dance the same steps, but sooner or later, some smaller items (eg a new ramjet BVR missile with twin sensor system) can make the difference.
New technology will eventually detect stealth. I do not see this stealth technology lasting forever. However, for now, it IS an advantage that has not been overcome with any significance. Developing a system that can detect stealth is probably under way. Once countries can detect stealth, that will deduce the overall effectiveness of 5th gen aircraft. Problem is that technology would have to get small. Small enough to fit inside a fighter jet to effectively engage a stealth fighter jet. Ground control interfacing (GCI) would have it’s limits, but could detect stealth jets to some degree. Being able to shoot one down is quite another story. SAM’s would have to be guided all the way, and if any country employing stealth aircraft against such a technology, then that would make that technology a primary target. Such as land/ship based guided cruse missiles. And by that time, even guided cruse missiles could be stealthy, just to add to the technology.
It is a vicious cycle. A snake consuming it’s own tail. And, by the time any country comes out with technology to defeat stealth, there will be even better technology to deal with by then.
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I’m sure if they’ve posted here about something, someone has argued with them that they’re wrong and they’ve left lol
I disagree.
They probably can’t tell you why there right. Maybe tell you a few items of interest, but can not fully disclose why, what there sources are and explain to you (or anyone here) why your (or anyone else) is wrong. RL combat jet pilots are here. They will not identify themselves for many reasons. A few might, but they would rather keep a very low key (again for many obvious reasons). Haole (a real USAF-16 driver for most of his life) is still around. I can get in contact with him if you wish. But since that is a mute point, the RL jet jocks are here. I know a few. I have chatted with them. They have a different view on how we (VR pilots) see combat jet operations and procedures. Laugh at us, they will, but still not for the reasons you might think.
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I disagree.
They probably can’t tell you why there right. Maybe tell you a few items of interest, but can not fully disclose why, what there sources are and explain to you (or anyone here) why your (or anyone else) is wrong. RL combat jet pilots are here. They will not identify themselves for many reasons. A few might, but they would rather keep a very low key (again for many obvious reasons). Haole (a real USAF-16 driver for most of his life) is still around. I can get in contact with him if you wish. But since that is a mute point, the RL jet jocks are here. I know a few. I have chatted with them. They have a different view on how we (VR pilots) see combat jet operations and procedures. Laugh at us, they will, but still not for the reasons you might think.
People argue with F-16 pilots here all the time. I’ve seen it as recent as today. A while ago I got a kick out of watching people argue with an E-3 pilot about the approximate range of the AWACS radar with some saying the curvature of the earth made it impossible for what he was saying :D. Same thing for people arguing about what the S-300 can and can’t do with people in the know.
I think most times you can read between the lines and figure it out. And a forum is for discussion so it’s not a big deal. Just funny sometimes seeing people so sure of their opinion when they are basing it off of internet knowledge vs. first hand experience (I’m sure I’ve done it too so include me in that group :)). Plus it can be difficult if they don’t know they are talking to someone with first hand knowledge.
Also jhook - info on the F-16 and ops isn’t all top secret. The forum on F-16.net is proof that a lot of info can be shared. Here I think most don’t to avoid getting bombarded with questions or because they don’t want to argue with us internet Falcon4 experts.
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Haven’t got a chance to read all the thread/the linked stuff yet but this is one of the more interesting break downs of Gen 4\Gen 4.5 vs. the F-22 (according to this F-15 pilot, the F-22 has better turn performance than I thought)
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Haven’t got a chance to read all the thread/the linked stuff yet but this is one of the more interesting break downs of Gen 4\Gen 4.5 vs. the F-22 (according to this F-15 pilot, the F-22 has better turn performance than I thought)
Yep,
He said everything pretty well there. Each jet has it’s advantage and disadvantages. When you go “doggie” and start to dance, it comes down to the pilot and his/her knowledge of there jet. TV is a fantastic technology, but know when to use it and when not to. Spot on for the F-22 (and the F-35). Like I said before, you got to see it first. Good luck with that….
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very insightful vid on way of thinking over tactics and AF operations/training
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The position of the aircraft when they first engage is important and since an F-22 can usually be undetected until it’s ready to engage, it almost always enters the fight with an advantage. People often say they will be detected when they fire a missile but they choose that moment carefully and may not always get a kill they are sure that it will push the bandit to maneuver in a way as to increase the F-22’s, or part of it’s package, chances to get a kill. If the engagement starts to go bad for the F-22 they usually have the ability to extend and separate from the engagement before they even get into trouble. The F-22 has so many tools in order to create a situation that they can get a kill without leaving themselves very vulnerable and if they are threatened they almost always have a means to bug out.